Rib-tickling!

The Clouds may be the best play I've read so far from Aristophanes. It's the cleverest in satire as well as genuinely funny- I mean, if an ancient play can make me laugh as much as an Oscar Wilde play makes me laugh, that's a very, very good sign for what's to come in the future.

In this play, Aristophanes attacks and satirizes Socrates and his followers/students, making them seem ridiculous and illogical. In fact, Aristophanes includes Socrates as a character, who is portrayed as a great teacher who is actually a bit absurd in nature. As he attempts to educate the son of the main character, Strepisiades, more and more of that ridiculousness comes to light. Essentially, the main character wants his son to be educated in "The Thinkery" by Socrates to rid his son of expensive wants such as horses. When the son refuses, Strepisiades enrolls instead. However, the education doesn't really work out that well, ending with humorous chaos all around.

The Chorus is probably one of the best parts of this play, to be frank. Aside from the odd choice of making them literal clouds, Aristophanes really uses them to break the fourth wall. In one section, the chorus is basically telling the audience that the play they're watching is a clever play that desverves to win a competition. In fact, they even take off their cloud costumes to do this. Talk about fourth wall!

Now, I was definitely interested in learning what the real relations were between Aristophanes and Socrates. I was pleased to learn that they apparently got along fine and were good friends- Aristophanes never really meant for the portrayal in The Clouds to be taken too seriously. Knowing this, I can kind of see how this farce is basically a playful mockery that's meant to be taken with a grain of salt.

"STREPSIDAES: O! To be sure,
Truffles! You there, don't trouble about that!
I'll tell you where the best and finest grow.
Look! Why do those stoop down so very much?
STUDENT: They're diving deep into the deepest secrets.
ST: Then why's their rump turned up towards
the sky?
STU: It's taking private lessons on the stars."

نمایشنامه ای کمدی که با شخصیتهای یونان باستان، فلسفیدن و سفسطه بازی را به سخره می گیرد.

"
- به زور تنبیه هم شده او را تربیت کن. کاری کن که زبانش تندتر از شمشیر شود و در مرافعات بی اهمیت و مهم پیروز شود.
- نگران نباش، سوفیستی فاضل را به تو بر می گردانم.
- امیدوارم او را رنگ پریده و پر از حرامزادگی تحویل بدهی..
"

Sigh. I think I'm in the minority here, but for the most part, I just don't find Aristophanes funny. I found myself reading over passages thinking, Okay, I should be laughing, but probably ended up looking like this the entire time:


That is all.

While this edition suffers from a too modern translation The Clouds resonates, all too self aware, castigating the audience, slurring them actually. This great farce takes aim at the secular university and the godless wiseasses it produces.

As Goodreads friend Sologdin noted, it is intriguing to see Socrates cast as a pre-Socratic. Much like Derrida’s post card.

A middle class father is deep in debt as a result of his son's lavish lifestyle. Father hopes education will allow the son to use logic and rhetoric to defeat these legal challenges. Son learns well and eventually canes his father.

The pale effeminate world of the sophists is ridiculed at every turn, though I wasn’t expecting the apocalyptic conclusion.

I recommend this satire at those who can still giggle with Deconstruction.

Absolutely brilliant - the best satire in history. The dialogue is so absurd it's difficult to believe somebody could actually write it! Aristophanes depicts Socrates proving everything and nothing all at once and insults all of Greece in the same breath

Aristotel je za antičke komedije rekao da prikazuju ljude lošijima nego što su u stvarnom životu, dok ih tragedije prikazuju boljima. Ovo je prva antička komedija koju sam pročitao (inače, Oblaci su i najstariji sačuvan dokument u kom se pominje Sokrat), i bolja je od očekivanog. Od Aristofana sam očekivao otprilike mahanje falusima po sceni, a dobio sam humor koji ide od prdenja i podrigivanja, pa do kritike društva u sjajnom duelu "ispravnog i pogrešnog umovanja", u kom, naravno pobeđuje pogrešno, a ispravno umovanje, šta će, beži među glupake, u publiku. Interesantno u tome nije što će u svakom društvu uvek biti više onih koji će da prihvate pogrešno umovanje, već i to da ovde pogrešno umovanje pobeđuje argumentima.

U centru priče je otac koji upisuje sina u filozofsku školu kod Sokrata, gde mali treba da nauči kako da pobedi u svakom argumentu. Cilj? Da on ne mora da vrati dugove. Sokrat je ovde pod priličnom kritikom, prikazan je mnogo drugačije nego što smo kasnije navikli kod Platona. Zapravo je upravo ono što kasnije on kroz dijaloge tvrdi da nije i ono što žestoko kritikuje. Sokrat nije ništa napisao, pa je zato teže pratiti njegov razvoj, ali oni koji su pokušali da ga isprate, smatraju da se negde u vreme prikazivanja ove komedije, kod njega desio priličan obrt, kroz koji Sokrat postaje onakvim kakvim ga znamo.

استرپسيادس: كجاي قانون، كتك زدن پدر مجاز است؟
فيديپيدس: آيا قانون گذار كسي مثل من و تو نيست؟ چرا من نتوانم در آينده قانوني تصويب كنم كه طي آن فرزندان كتك هاي پدرانشان را تلافي كنند؟ همه كتك هايي را كه قبل از تصويب اين قانون خورده بوديم، تقديم حضورتان مي كنيم. يادتان هست چطور ما را زير مشت و لگد داغان مي كرديد؟...
.
.
استرپسيادس: حق من، تنبيه تو و حق تو تنبيه فرزندت است. البته اگر پسر باشد.
فيديپيدس: اگر پسردار نشدم، گريه هايم بيهوده بوده. در حالي كه تو خنده كنان مي ميري.

“Then tell me, isn’t it also just for me likewise to be well-intentioned toward you and to beat you, since in fact to be well-intentioned is to beat? For why should *your* body be unchastised by blows, but not mine? And in fact I too was born free. Children weep: does it seem fit to you that a father not weep? *You* will say that it is the law that this is a boy’s work, but *I* would say in return, ‘Old men are children twice.’ And it’s more appropriate for the old to weep than the young, inasmuch as it’s less for them to do wrong...Is it any less allowable for me, too, then, to set down in turn for the future a novel law for sons to beat their fathers in return? As for the blows that we got before the law is set down, we dismiss them, and we give them our past thrashings gratis. Consider the chickens and the other beasts: they defend themselves against their fathers. Yet how do they differ from us, except that they do not write decrees?”

خوانش دوم:


این بار هم دوباره همراه آپولوژی افلاطون خوندمش. نمی‌دونم تا حالا چند بار آپولوژی رو خوندم و هر بار به‌نظرم شورانگیز می‌‌آد. اما اون‌چه در این خوانش دوباره تونستم توی ذهنم مرتب‌ترش کنم مقایسه‌ی وضعیت سقراط در «ابرها» و «آپولوژی» و به‌صورت کلی‌تر مقایسه‌ی وضعیت سوفیست و فیلسوف بود. هر دو تهدیدی بودن در برابر نظم موجود و هنجارهای پذیرفته‌شده در یونان که ازلی و ابدلی تلقی می‌شدن. سوفیست کلاً زد زیر میز و گفت هیچ‌کدوم درست نیست و اصلاً «درستی» وجود نداره، فیلسوف اما می‌گفت «درستی» وجود داره، اما نه اون «درستی» که شما می‌گین، «درستی» که با عقل و منطق بشه بهش رسید. شاید هم برای همین آریستوفان سقراط رو سوفیست می‌پنداره چون جفت گروه‌ فیلسوف‌ها و سوفیست‌ها در مخالفت با سنت هم‌ردیف بودن اما روش مخالفت‌شون و چیستی مخالفت‌شون فرق داشته. و جالبه که امروز آدم حس می‌کنه سوفیست چه‌بسا فیلسوف‌تر بوده.


خوانش اول:

نمی‌دونم چرا مترجم اصرار داشت اسم‌ها رو انقدر عجیب‌و‌غریب بنویسه و
باعث شه خوندن این نمایشنامه انقدر سخت بشه. از این که بگذریم، وقتی آپولوژی افلاطون رو می‌خوندم و توش اشاره شده بود به این‌که ابرهای آریستوفانس تصور اشتباهی از سقراط در ذهن آدم‌ها ایجاد کرده، فکر می‌کردم با خوندن ابرها با سقراط خیلی مسخره و دیوانه‌ای روبه‌رو شم که صد و هشتاد درجه با سقراط افلاطون متفاوته. اما بعد از خوندن ابرها فهمیدم که این‌جوری نیست واقعاً. درسته که زاویه‌ای که آریستوفانس با سقراط داره خیلی با ستایش افلاطون ازش متفاوته اما به‌نظرم ویژگی‌ کلی هر دو سقراط یکیه و اون هم «به پرسش کشیدن ارزش‌های سنتی» در آتنه. حالا آریستوفانس به خاطر سنت‌گرایی‌اش با این کار سقراط مخالفه و به‌نظرش سقراط یه سوفیسته که حق و ناحق می‌کنه، به نظر افلاطون این کارش درسته چون اتفاقاً داره در مخالفت با سوفیست‌ها مردم رو به پرسش‌گری دعوت می‌کنه.

There is no better way to understand the general population of 5th century Greece's view of philosophy than through The Clouds. This is the only play I've read by Arisophanes's so far, but I would suspect that his other satires would have the same impact. There is something about the play that is almost like a time capsule to the past. What's even better is that despite its antiquity, it's still hilarious today.

Arisophane's plays were influence, I suspect, because I think the negative portrayal of Socrates only fueled the general dislike for him. No doubt it had an influence on the outcome Socrates's trial since the jury could have been influence by the play.

"FIDÍPIDES: Como é doce conviver com ideias novas e engenhosas, e poder desprezar as leis estabelecidas!"

Aristófanes não é o mais sutil dos tradicionalistas gregos, e condena a sofística de Protágoras no mesmo embalo que a retórica de Sócrates, coitado, que nada tinha com isso. Densa com referências políticas e culturais - quase 50% da minha edição era de notas de rodapé -, a peça é surpreendemente vulgar e cheia de piadas de PEIDO que continuam engraçadas dois milênios e meio depois da encenação original. Recomendada a quem tiver paciência.