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Rating(3.9 / 5.0, 100 votes)
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31(31%)
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100 reviews
April 1,2025
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Aristophanes found the teachings of the sophists absurd, and his play Clouds caricatures them with a sharp, funny dive into chaos. It’s a little puzzling, because he has Socrates as the head sophist, and Socrates was most certainly not a sophist, nor a fan of them. The translator of the Bantam Classic edition, Moses Hadas, explains that Aristophanes may have done this because he found Socrates’s mannerisms and behavior amusing enough to throw into a play that pokes fun at philosophy. It could be that Aristophanes was also mocking philosophy more generally, with its “impractical” studies.

Strepsiades the pragmatic farmer has found himself with various debts, and wishes for his useless son to go learn sophistry in order to get him out of having to pay them. His son refuses to go, so Strepsiades goes instead. Here he finds Socrates and other teachers doing all sorts of things that didn’t appear useful to a man with practical interests: measuring the jumping distances of fleas, learning about the farts of gnats, and using made up logic to win arguments.

Socrates explains some things to Strepsiades about weather that appear blasphemous but that carry a surprising level of scientific sophistication given the age. This is taken as mere philosophers challenging traditions and conventions. The clouds, or the chorus, keep the play pumping forward and splitting open the drama in poetic charm.

Right logic and wrong logic debate their merits through a rapid-fire exchange of verse, Strepsiades’s son is eventually brought in, and the twisting, arbitrary logic of sophistry is used to justify the son beating his own father, as events get out of control. Aristophanes managed to caricature both learning and those skeptical of learning, while sprinkling his play with amusing references to bodily functions, sodomy, sex jokes, language peculiarities, cultural oddities and misunderstandings, whimsical reflections on the employment of sophist logic, and criticisms of social norms like debt and interest and public attitudes toward philosophy.

It’s an amusing play that, like others of Aristophanes’s works, points to a lot of similarity between the modern and ancient world. I’d really like to see this one performed. I can picture a comedy that gets more and more out of hand, held together only by its poetic chorus and well composed sense of the absurd.
April 1,2025
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ترجمه روان است.
مترجم در مقدمه می گوید که اسامی را مطابق تلفظ یونانی آورده، اما دست کم شش جور اشکال در این اقدام او هست.
1. سقراط را دیگر نباید سکراتیس نوشت
2. ذیاس و زئوس به تناوب تکرار شده اند و مراد از هر دو، زئوس است
3. خایرفون را خرفون آورده، با اینکه صورت یونانی آن را در یادداشت ها آورده
ΧΑΙΡΕΦΩΝ
4. دلتا را ذ می نویسد.
5. اوپسیلون را ی می نویسد
6. اتا را ی می نویسد، مثلا آریستوفانیس و نه آریستوفانس

نکته جالب این نمایشنامه برای من اینه که حتی در یونان باستان هم آدم خر پیدا می شده. یعنی جز تهران خودمون، آتن هم خر کم نداشته.
دوم اینکه، سقراط رو علنا سوفیست نشون میده، کسی که ناحق رو حق جلوه می ده.
سوم اینکه میشه درک کرد که اشراف و اعیان آتن از کجای کار سقراط عصبی می شدن: از اینکه این آدم با استدلال و عقل ورزی می خواد آیین ها و سنت های قدیمی رو زیر سوال ببره، ولو اینکه حرفش درست باشه.
ادعای عمده ای که علیه سقراط در محاکمه ی او مطرح شده، در این نمایشنامه هم مورد اشاره قرار گرفته اند. 1. رواج بی دینی، 2. فاسد کردن جوانان، 3. پرستش خدایان جدید و ...
ولی انصافا رفتار افلاطون با آریستوفانس در سمپوزیوم، منصفانه تر از رفتار آریستوفانس با سقراط در ابرهاست
April 1,2025
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Jeg tror måske jeg er for dum til bogen, for der var en del ting i bogen, jeg ikke helt fik med… Men den var ret sjov alligevel!!
Sjove citater:

“Skønt armen skulle holdes strakt med skjoldet foran brystet, så tænker de: “Athene, fuck!””

“Han var ikke vildmand nok mellem lagner, sukkerstangen vared ikke natten ud. Kvinder vil have kæp, din oldsag.”

“Vi har tabt, I fisseletter! Fjenden er i overtal.”
April 1,2025
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What's the deal with The Clouds? Things you should know:

1. This is allegedly the play that defamed Socrates so badly that Athens rose up and executed him.

2. This is a revised version of the original play, and contains speeches complaining that the play came in third place when it debuted.

3. This play is a brutal satire in the vein of Swift's A Modest Proposal, and it is more shocking than most modern comedies.

4. At its heart, this play is a debate between tradition and enlightenment/debauchery. Although the play is conceived with a traditionalist agenda, the non-traditionalist arguments are sometimes convincing. For example, the religion vs. science debate about precipitation and the debate over whether teenagers should toughen up by not wearing coats in the winter had me rooting for the new thinkers.

5. The play is also relevant because it parodies misdirection and ad hominem fallacies that are still used to (falsely) win arguments today.

6. I read the Moses Hadas translation, which is better than some, but far from perfect. Some of my thoughts on the more confusing points are found here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
April 1,2025
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"FIDÍPIDES: Como é doce conviver com ideias novas e engenhosas, e poder desprezar as leis estabelecidas!"

Aristófanes não é o mais sutil dos tradicionalistas gregos, e condena a sofística de Protágoras no mesmo embalo que a retórica de Sócrates, coitado, que nada tinha com isso. Densa com referências políticas e culturais - quase 50% da minha edição era de notas de rodapé -, a peça é surpreendemente vulgar e cheia de piadas de PEIDO que continuam engraçadas dois milênios e meio depois da encenação original. Recomendada a quem tiver paciência.
April 1,2025
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While this edition suffers from a too modern translation The Clouds resonates, all too self aware, castigating the audience, slurring them actually. This great farce takes aim at the secular university and the godless wiseasses it produces.

As Goodreads friend Sologdin noted, it is intriguing to see Socrates cast as a pre-Socratic. Much like Derrida’s post card.

A middle class father is deep in debt as a result of his son's lavish lifestyle. Father hopes education will allow the son to use logic and rhetoric to defeat these legal challenges. Son learns well and eventually canes his father.

The pale effeminate world of the sophists is ridiculed at every turn, though I wasn’t expecting the apocalyptic conclusion.

I recommend this satire at those who can still giggle with Deconstruction.
April 1,2025
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If you're reading Aristophanes today then a very good question is: Why?

Playing and punning on issues of politics and art from an era that even stone cold archeologists don't know everything about seems pointless. How are the jokes going to land if you don't know who Ari is making fun of? If it isn't simply about the language -- which it can be if you read the tragedians -- and if there isn't any mythological story we can learn, then, WTF, right?

I get the cavils about the jokes not being funny and blah blah blah, but if you are reading Aristophanes at all then you really need to ask yourself why. Are you reading it because he has a hard name to pronounce (for idiots) and it makes you seem smart? Your junior high english teacher name dropped him as a "hard", "difficult", and "erudite" playwright, and thus reading him will make you all of those things (it won't)?? Maybe you need to take a hard look in the mirror and ask yourself whether or not you're a cunt.

If you read the footnotes, and the footnotes to the footnotes, you'll see -- quite plainly -- what Aristophanes was getting at. He made Socrates (like, whoa, dude, the So-crates!) the straw man for what Ari perceived as a burgeoning group of upstart cunts -- Der Sophists -- whose mission was to destroy Art and Culture forever, and who, being obsessed with politics and ipso facto War, would end up literally burning Athens to the ground. Well, Ari was right, and they did (burn Athens). As for Arts & Entertainment: any good Athenian playwrights after Euripides? Huh?? Name one!

OK, fine, you say. So fuckin what? Well, it's a good question. The only -- dare I say the word -- "logical" question left is:

ARE ANY OF THESE THEMES RELEVANT TODAY?????
April 1,2025
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4.5 stars. I had read pieces of this over a decade ago, but didn’t appreciate it as much as I do now. Equal parts witty, slap-stick, and vulgar, there are some unforgettable moments, including a battle between old philosophy and new philosophy, phallic familial beatings, and, of course, the burning of Socrates’ “Thinkery.” I preferred the William Arrowsmith translation to some of the other versions I saw that attempted to make the slang more “updated.”
April 1,2025
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استرپسيادس: كجاي قانون، كتك زدن پدر مجاز است؟
فيديپيدس: آيا قانون گذار كسي مثل من و تو نيست؟ چرا من نتوانم در آينده قانوني تصويب كنم كه طي آن فرزندان كتك هاي پدرانشان را تلافي كنند؟ همه كتك هايي را كه قبل از تصويب اين قانون خورده بوديم، تقديم حضورتان مي كنيم. يادتان هست چطور ما را زير مشت و لگد داغان مي كرديد؟...
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استرپسيادس: حق من، تنبيه تو و حق تو تنبيه فرزندت است. البته اگر پسر باشد.
فيديپيدس: اگر پسردار نشدم، گريه هايم بيهوده بوده. در حالي كه تو خنده كنان مي ميري.
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