Oh, man, where the fuck do I really even start? When I've read Dune last year I fell head over heels in love with it. It had been such a long time since I've read a chunky sci-fi/fantasy novel and I seriously didn't expect to love that book, its characters, the world building, and its plot as much as I did.

n  Empires do not suffer emptiness of purpose at the time of their creation. It is when they have become established that aims are lost and replaced by vague ritual.n

And even though Dune had a somewhat closed ending, I was still curious to see where Paul Muad'Dib would end up. What would happen to Arrakis under his rule? To the Fremen? To the whole universe? I've heard many interesting takes on the series as a whole, and I am mainly interested in the philosophical questions of power, worship and human control over nature that it raises. Therefore, I knew that I had to give Dune Messiah a shot, to piece the puzzle together, and to get more answers.

I didn't nearly love it as much as I loved Dune. Dune had the big advantage of everything being new. I was introduced to Arrakis, to the Atreides, the Harkonnens; I saw the ornithopters, the Fremen stillsuits and the sandworms for the first time; I started to grasp the complexity of this world that Frank Herbert created. Whereas in Dune Messiah, albeit the world has changed, it still feels oddly familiar. To me, the sequel didn't feel as fresh or new or even original. It felt more like the traditional sci-fi novels that I usually stay clear off.

In Dune, Paul was a young boy who led a revolution against the tyranny of the Padishah empire. However, when he ascended the throne as emperor, a jihad got unleashed in his name, leading to the death of 61 billion people. He became a failed hero. Heroes who fail to recognise their humanity fall into an abyss of desolation forged from the failures they encounter once realism dawns on them.

n  There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual into the other.n

Dune Messiah shows how deadly religion can get once it has a cause that fuels it. Paul knows that even if he were to disappear or die, he wouldn't be able to stop the jihad, he'd simply become a martyr, a God, fuelling the jihad even more. The people fighting in his name have become fanatics, succumbed to a cause that will never let them out of its grips.

n  There are problems in this universe for which there are no answers. Nothing. Nothing can be done.n

In Dune Messiah, we find many interesting musings on power and freedom: "Power tends to isolate those who hold too much of it. Eventually, they lose touch with reality … and fall.", "Any delusions of Free Will he harboured now must be merely the prisoner rattling his cage. His curse lay in the fact that he saw the cage.", and "Too much freedom breeds chaos."

I wish I had found the time (or energy) to contemplate these a lot more, because I really like how Herbert subverts the (white) savior trope in this series. Paul is a failed hero. And for that, he is the most interesting character in these books. We see the paradoxes surrounding him. So, I really like what Herbert has to say about the nature of power, and how it corrupts (not just the person who holds it but also the cause for which it is used), however, I have to admit that I haven't (yet) dived deep into an interpretation of the series. I think I will save that for when I've finished Children of Dune. I can't wait to read all the hot takes and watch video essays on it.

Now let's discuss some of the things I really didn't enjoy this book – and why it ultimately left me a little bit disappointed.

Similarly to Dune, Frank Herbert's writing style is just really not my cup of tea. I don't think that his writing is beautiful nor effective. Whilst I love his world building and appreciate the complexity of the universe he created, I have to admit that I struggle with visualising any of his descriptions. Therefore, I was very happy that I could bounce off the visuals of Denis Villeneuve's new film. They really helped me picture the world whilst reading.

However, as new characters and elements of the world are introduced in Dune Messiah, I struggled with visualising them. It's not that Herbert doesn't describe them, it's just how he does it that doesn't work for me. I always end up picturing the most ridiculous things possible. For example, if you compare Herbert's descriptions of the members of the Spacing Guild – "Edric swam in a container of orange gas … The Guildsman was an elongated figure, vaguely humanoid with finned feet and hugely fanned membraneous hands – a fish in a strange sea. His tank’s vents emitted a pale orange cloud rich with the smell of the geriatric spice, melange." – to Denis Villeneuve's cool design for the movie:



It's not hard to pick a favorite. Herbert's description seems so ... weird? A fish-like figure swimming in an orange gas tank? What is that supposed to look like? How is that practical for the story? How does Edric move forward? Isn't he super vulnerable because people could just break his tank?? What is happening? Whereas in the movie, the Spacing Guild looks fucking epic, even intimidating. They have a much more Star Wars-y design. And I can take them seriously. In the movie, they are much more believable.

Another example is the Dune Tarot. Up to this day, I don't understand what its function is or how it even works. It's an oracular tool (basically Tarot cards?) sold in markets on Arrakis. For some reason, that is never properly explained, the existence of the Tarot muddles Paul's and Alia's ability to see the future. Wait, what? How? And why? Because there are more prophets. It makes no sense. Also, just picturing Fremen dealing with Tarot cards is too fucking funny to me. Again, it's a part of the world that would've probably been really cool and epic in the films, but in the book, I fail to take it seriously.

My biggest gripe with Dune Messiah, however, is what Frank Herbert did to the character of Alia. She had such great potential in Dune, being the youngest and most powerful Reverend Mother, I couldn't wait to see her as a teenager (she is 15 at the beginning of Dune Messiah), so that she could become more integral to the plot.

Instead of fleshing out her character and giving her an important role (which would suit her powers), Herbert does nothing but sexualise her throughout the entirety of the novel. It was frustrating, and even disgusting at times, but let me elaborate: It all started going to shit right off the bat, when the Tleilaxu admit that their plan is to distract her by making her fall in love with Hayt: "She is of an age when she can be distracted by a charming male designed for that purpose. She will be attracted by his maleness and by his abilities as a mentat."

So, you're telling me, one of the most powerful creatures of this universe will get distracted and lured into a trap by a man? Umm, okay, sure. Keep on dreaming, Herbert.

I really don't understand why Herbert was so obsessed with stressing the point that now, at age 15, Alia has her sexual awakening: "It was lust in tension with chastity, she thought. Her flesh desired a mate. Sex held no casual mystery for a Reverend mother who had presided at the sketch orgies." I mean, what is happening??? Why is that necessary?? Paul didn't go through a sex-crazy phase when he was a teenager in Dune, so why must Alia?

The lowest of low points was the scene in which Alia decides to do target practice naked: "Abruptly, Alia climbed dripping from the bath, strode wet an naked into the training chamber which adjoined her bedroom." The whole scene was so muddled by the male gaze it was hard to bear. Women do not enjoy fighting naked. It's not practical, Herbert. Titties bouncing all over the place. It hurts. And the way Herbert described this naked 15-year old (!!!) girl – "Sweat glistened on her naked skin." – made me very uncomfortable. It was disgusting.

When Alia is discovered by her brother Paul and Stilgar, Frank Herbert once again showed that he's a man and doesn't understand teenage girls: "Alia, growing conscious of her nudity, thought to cover herself, found the idea amusing. What the eyes had seen could not be erased." Absolutely not. Girls don't find it amusing when their brothers see them naked?? What is going on with you??

In general, Herbert tried to establish somewhat of a sexual tension between Alia and Paul (...who is 30 at this point, mind you – AND HER FUCKING BROTHER) – "Paul took his time reading the reactions on her face and body: the flush of her exertions colouring her skin, the wet fulness of her lips. There was a disquieting femaleness about her that he had never considered in his sister." – and I wasn't here for any of that. It was soooo unnecessary to the plot, and just disgusting. When Paul noticed that "Yes – there’d been a ruttish air about Alia." I actually wanted to throw my copy of the book away. I mean, what the fuck is going on here, Frank? Can we focus, please?

Another way that Alia was thrown under the bus in this novel is her relationship to Hayt/Duncan. Alia, the most powerful and most KNOWLEDGEABLE creature in the universe (having absorbed all the knowledge of all Reverend Mothers before her), becomes a naive and silly girl in front of Hayt and his "male confidence" (her words, not mine...). At the end of the book, she literally says to him: "'I need you, Duncan,' she sobbed. 'Love me.'" Are you fucking kidding me? How about you start using your powers and choosing your own destiny, instead of relying on this man (who kissed you without your consent btw)??? So yeah, Alia's character went DOWN THE DRAIN, and I'm still pissed about it.

Anyways, what follows now is a very short summary of Dune Messiah – which I will use for further reference once I get to Children of Dune (ya'll know that my memory is like a sieve) – so please beware of spoilers:

Twelve years after Paul Atreides's ascension as emperor, the death toll of the jihad unleashed in his name peeks 61 billion people. Paul gains total control of Melange's production, making him the most powerful emperor to have ever ruled. Using his prescience, Paul tries to create a golden path for humanity.

n  “I’ve killed sixty-one billion, sterilised ninety planets, completely demoralised five hundred others. I’ve wiped out the followers of forty religions which had existed since.”n

The Bene Gesserit, Spacing Guild, and Tleilaxu come together to plot a plan that will lead to Paul's dethroning. Reverend Mother Gaius recruits Princess Irulan, Paul's consort, to work on the inside, and she does so by adding contraceptives into Chani's food, preventing her from conceiving for Paul. However, Chani gets pregnant after using a Fremen fertility diet. Scytale, the face dancer from the Tleilaxu, brings Paul a gift of Duncan Idaho's ghola, called Hayt. Paul's acceptance of Hayt creates a rift between him and the Fremen.

Paul discovers a Fremen plot to kill him and confronts his opposition. Paul gets blinded by a Stone Burner. Paul tries negotiating Chani's life in exchange for artificially inseminating Princess Irulan. As foreseen, Chani dies in childbirth, and Hayt attacks Paul but recovers his former self.

Paul kills Scytale by using his son's eyes after having received a prescient vision from the perspective of his newborn son. Paul then loses his own prescience in the act. Paul leaves his new twin babies in Alia's care and walks into the desert as a man as per the Fremen tradition. Alia orders the execution of Paul's enemies, including Reverend Mother Gaius and Edric. However, she spares Princess Irulan.

Despite of reading and rereading Dune and falling in love with it, I've never attempted to read the rest of the series. Now I know I haven't missed much. This was a disappointment from beginning to end. Even the writing is stuttered and to be honest boring.

I have yet to see the new movie just released, but I was ready to move on with the Dune universe. This is my first time reading this sequel. I have heard from booktubers that this functions more like one story, the 1st 3 books. Beginning, this is the middle and Children of Dune is the end of that one book. I'm not sure about that yet. I need to read the last one.

I really loved this book. Frank had so much to say with this story. I simply loved it. Honestly, I think I like it better than the 1st book. I did enjoy the first one, but this is dealing with vision, prophesy, prescience. I mean, this was powerful, how Frank laid it all out.

Paul is able to see into the future and he sees all the other realities that can come to pass and most of them are much worse, much more grisly. He chooses the path of the best outcome, or the path with the least worst things happening and it means letting things happen he knows will be painful. Not stopping all the bad things he knows are coming. I think this is amazing stuff. This book is less than 300 pages and easy to read through. It starts after a long period of war in the galaxy where Paul has killed trillions of people and rules most of the galaxy. The Freman have started changing and they are getting a taste of government and money - power. This is a brilliant story.

I think I want to get spoilery, so Spoiler alert-







This goes so far as Paul walks into what he knows with be a trap and an atomic bomb is set off. His eyes are burned out of his head and he is blind. He knew this would happen and he still had to walk the path because it was the best way forward. There is a conspiracy against Paul and Paul is doing his best for the best outcome. Even though Paul is blind, his visions of the present and future are so sharp and complete that he can see what people are wearing and what they are doing and even read things on paper so that it looks like he can see when his eye sockets are empty. People fear him.

Paul doesn't want to be deified and he can't stop it. He is so popular that he can't control what is happening. He can't help people see that he is only a person. As Mike, from Mike's Book Reviews eloquently said, this is a warning to not worship leaders. They are still flawed people and we can't put all our trust in them or our eggs. It's a poor paraphrase.

I am most tempted to give this 5 stars. I mean, this book spoke to me. I might change my 4 star rating to 5 soon. I'm not sure. If you enjoy sci-fy and have read the Dune original, please go on with the series. It's worth the read.

This book was every bit as terrible as I remembered. I was committed to not abandoning it as I did last time because I want to delve a little further into the Dune series. Dune is one of my favorite novels. Even through there is precedent, it is hard to accept that sequels can be such a complete reversal.

Dune is a strong story about an interesting life. A minor weakness of the book is that it is asserted, but never shown, that the events unfolding will impact inter-galactic empires, create a holy jihad and cause the rise of a major religion centering on the main character. This fails to hurt the book because of none of this actually happens within the confines of Dune, aside from a minor scene at the end that crowns him. This event, in itself, is consistent with the plot.

Dune Messiah starts with having accepted that all we were told to expect has happened and then wallows in the religious weirdness it creates. Very little happens. I'm not sure it is possible to recover from here, but will try Children of Dune before giving up.

I think most people don't particularly like this book, but I'm not sure why. Is it because Paul-Muad'Dib, Messiah, Emperor, God, is shown as a flawed human? Is it because we see that even with his awesome powers, he's still unable to map the future, to escape the future, the same as any ordinary human? We know Paul was never going to be perfect, was never going to be an angelic being or benevolent emperor; Frank Herbert told us that in "Dune." We know that Paul knew his destiny, knew the consequences of his actions, from the earliest moments; we can speculate that he might've even had the power to change the outcome, to escape the jihad fought in his name, to fling off the mantle of power that weighed upon him and turned his friends and companions into slavish minions, willing to do anything in the name of Muad'Dib. And yet he didn't. He continued on his course of actions, perhaps because, in his arrogance, he began to believe too much in his own mythology--Muad'Dib, the Kwisatz Haderch, the Lisan al-Gaib; perhaps he even grew to enjoy the trappings of power, underneath his disdain. And perhaps that is what truly destroyed him, in the end: recognition of his human-ness underneath the godhead. I found this book to be just as powerful as "Dune" as it explores what happens to the messiah once he is accepted and the changes he's wrought become routine and ritualized. It wasn't about the world-shaking changes he brought to everyone else; it was about the psyche-shaking changes his role brought to himself, the dark side of power that defines who and what we become.

It's difficult for me to be too tough on this book because it simply feels incomplete. About half the size of the original, it feels like a simply bridge to Children of Dune than an actual sequel to Dune. But the theme of the story is one that Frank Herbert must have believed personally and that is Think For Yourself. People are not gods. Gods are not governance. To deify politicians and world leaders is a can of worms that should never be opened.

Fans of the original fell in love with Paul Atreides and to see him essentially as a flawed leader with clay feet left a bitter taste in many mouths. So, again, it's easy to understand the criticism. It's like if Empire Strikes Back came out and Luke turned out to be just some dude who was more lucky than gifted. I’ll always recommend reading Messiah and Children of Dune together. Because as a stand alone, Messiah vanishes under the vast shadow cast by its predecessor.

Truly epic characters and motivations.

I've been skeptical to read on in the Dune series as it appears that the ratings get progressively worse. However, I found myself just as mystified and intrigued with finished Dune Messiah as when I finished Dune. This is a continuation of the same stories, the same characters with new and competing interests all cloaked under an opaque mysticism compelling enough to keep the reader going. The strength of this book is the characters and the world building.

Paul Atreides is truly an epic character. He is prophet, emperor, messiah and most importantly a total tyrant. His rule has unleashed untold misery and death across hundreds of planets, a fact of which he has been acutely aware. In a way, Paul is a victim of circumstances as it appears destiny is a very strong factor in the world building. As a self-ware tyrant, Paul seeks to both stop his tyranny but maintain power. The way Herbert navigates these contradictory motivations in Dune Messiah is masterful with a conclusion that is tragic, just and stirring.

This is a story almost told like a play: an interesting setting with compelling characters acting out their overt motivations. No spoilers, but there is the return of a character in this sequel that is incredibly engaging and fascinating. The behavior of Paul's sister as well as his wife and concubine is very engrossing. The motivations are both opaque and transparent as both the reader and the prescient Paul knows what all characters want. In this way, Paul is both protagonist and antagonist-himself his own enemy. A very strong theme here is the role of fate in the character's lives.

The world building is just as strong as in Dune. The culture of the Freman turning into almost a tribal aristocracy was interesting. The competing cultures and economic interests makes every word and action of each character bursting with intrigue. There is development of the worlds, societies and cultures that have taken place in the 12 years since the first novel. The mysticism is a driver of the plot and character motivations. It is opaque enough to be compelling and not too explicit that it diminishes the mystery.

Herbert is not the strongest storyteller. Sometimes the plot is too vague. There is nothing particularity good about the prose although there is an improvement from the original Dune. Herbert constantly commits a serious error with switching POVs. Within the same body of text, he switches between up to 4 different inner monologue of characters within the same scene. This is hugely amateur. If he were to submit these novels to an agent or publisher today, it would be rejected outright because of this error. It's incredibly frustrating as a reader because it's not always obvious who is doing the thinking or speaking. If Herbert had worked on his writing skills a little bit more, I suspect the rest of the series would've been as epic as the original Dune.

At any rate, Dune Messiah is very unique and makes me want to continue on in the series. Dune Messiah is worth reading for the ending alone.

Serinin ilk kitabı olan dune‘dan oldukça farklı olan devam kitabı. Masalın sonunda kötüyü yenip iyiler kazandıktan sonra ne olur, toplum nasıl yaşamaya devam eder, cihat ortamı nasıl şekil değiştirir bunları gösteriyor. İlk kitaba kıyasla çok daha kısa, zaten artık öğrenmiş olduğunuz bir evrende geçtiği için insana adaptasyon problemi de yaşatmayan bir hikaye. Aksiyondan ziyade daha manevi ya da duygusal ağırlıklı olduğu soylenebili. Kültürde ziyade çünkü Mesih'in iç dengelerini tartışmasını, insanların mesihi değil, mesihin kendini değerlendirip ne istediğini sorguladığı kitap bu kitap.Roman boyunca Muad'Dib hem kendisini hem de gezegende yaptıklarını sorguluyor. Fremenler tarafından kabul görüp görmediğini, mesih olmanın nelere mal olduğunu düşünüyor sürekli.Suikastler,güç savaşlarıyla uğraşırken iyi bi aşık olma çabasında.Hem dini hem de siyasi lider olarak Paul’ün kendini sorgulamaya başlaması da sık sık kurgunun içinde yer alıyor.

muad'dib'in yarattığı cihat ortamı tüm evreni kasıp kavururken o hala özünde insan olmak, herşeyi bir kenara bırakıp sıradan bir hayat sürmek istemiştir. siyasi temellerin üzerinde yükselen ancak daha çok karakterlerin iç dünyasına odaklı bir kitap. İlk kitapta tüm gezegeni kontrol almıştı Muad'Dib ve İmparator olmuştu. Bu gelişmelerden on iki yıl sonrasını anlatıyor Dune Mesihi. On iki yılda, Paul'un imparatorluğunu kabul etmeyen 61 milyon insan öldürülmüştür. Gezegendeki her yere olmasa da bazı yerlere su gelmiş ve yeşillikle kaplamayı başarmıştır Fremenler. Ancak bu gelişmeler bile Paul'un kendini sorgulamasına engel olamamıştır. Ve insani yönü, duyguları daha fazla ortaya çıkmaya başlamıştır. özellikle paul atreides’in iç konuşmaları, kehanet yüzünden düştüğü zaman-üstü konumunun verdiği çaresizlik hissi çok güzel bir biçimde aktarılmış. şeyh hulud'a kavuşmak üzere çöle yürümesi insanı üzer, yakınları ise en manalısının bu oldugunda hem fikir olup bu durumu kabul ederler.

evrene salınmış bir din virüsü, inanç için can alanlar, dayatmayı kabul etmediği zaman ölenler.cihatı ortaya çıkaran muad'dib 'in çektiği vicdan azabı. özlediği özgürlüğe kavuşmak için ölüme yürümesi. evlatlar için annenin feda edilmesi olgularıyla biraz buruk bir "arkası şimdi" sahnesi çıkıyor karşımıza. liderlik, bir yönetici olmak ve insan olmak ve din ve aşk ve keder üzerine güzel öğretiler barındırır. son söz olarak yer alan "gûlanın ilâhisi" ise duygulandırır.

Duncan idaho‘nun da dönüşü gerçekten güzel bir kurguya oturtulmuştu. Bu vesile ile sisteme kılık değiştirebilen yeni bir tür de katılmış oldu. Sima Dansçıları'na, Tleilax'lar. Topluma, yönetime, kanunlara, dine ve diğer birçok şeye dair özlü sözler de yine olmazsa olmazlardan biriydi. :)

3,5
“The abyss remains. It is pregnant with all the things yet to be. Ah, what gentle violence!”

“How easy it was to mistake clear reasoning for correct reasoning!”

The whole story revolves around, what feels like, the greatest conspiracy ever planned by some mystical, uber intellectuals without whom the story wouldn't even suffer a lot. They even seemed like some minor characters in relevance and they should have carried a great part of the whole destruction of Maud Dib plot. There are number of factions that want to dethrone the emperor but their objectives and methods often come across as hazy or far-fetched.
I'm a little bit confused by this sequel and I'm not quite sure do I like it. Nonetheless I like the writing style,the world building and the whole complex universe this author created.
My biggest complaint is against the years we missed between the first and this second book. The time lapse is twelve years and I think I would prefer to read more about Paul becoming the Emperor after living in the desert as a Freemen, his thoughts and experiences with that change of roles and about him actually building his empire.
Sadly, all that was skipped in favour of a plot with the above mentioned conspiracy plan that was sprinkled with some basic information about the war that ravages the galaxy in Emperor's name.
After the conclusion of the Dune Paul is viewed as an immensely powerful character but this sequel portraits him behaving like an 16 year old kid he really was in the first part. He should have been smarter, more mature and decisive,after all he's been through.
I enjoyed the Duncan Idaho parts but the book as a whole is just all over the place.
How can I not be disillusioned with this story when even Paul looks like he is drifting through it without having an active and purposeful role in it.

2.75/5

You know what's the worst thing about this series for me? The fact that although I like the plot and the main characters, Herbert's writing style makes me so detached from it all that after a while everything I like here, suddenly becomes dull.

The beginning of the second part of Dune was even engaging and I was drawn into the story, but to enjoy the rest I have to like the writing, which is not the case here. Unfortunately, I'm one of those readers where if the writing style doesn't suit me, the rest probably won't either. It took me days to finish the three-hundred-pages book, which usually takes me a day or two when I like the story. I think that in itself shows how much I enjoyed it.

I must admit that the ending made me want to continue it, but I think I should take a short break from the world of Dune, because sadly for me this is not the type of series that I could binge read in a week. Maybe these are the type of books that I need to savor slowly to understand them better, or just like them more, I honestly don't know, but despite my low rating here, I will probably continue this series one day, when the right time comes.

فوق العاده، شاهکار به معنای واقعی کلمه
پایان بندی چنان درخشانی داشت که من هنوز بعد از گذشت چند ساعت بهت زده ام و حال و حوصله‌ی کار دیگری ندارم.
اصلا انقدر خوب بود که احساس می‌کنم توضیح دادنش کار من نیست.
حتما بخوانید.
پی نوشت : این کتاب ادامه‌ی کتاب تلماسه، ست و قبل از خواندن تلماسه قابل فهم نیست.

n  "The flesh surrenders itself. Eternity takes back its own. Our bodies stirred these waters briefly, danced with a certain intoxication before the love of life and self, dealt with a few strange ideas, then submitted to the instruments of Time. What can we say of this? I occurred. I am not... yet, I occurred."n

4.5 out of 5

Unexpectedly, this was one of the saddest SFF books I've ever read. It's not that it was entirely unexpected, but seeing (reading) all of this unfold was just... sad. Truly solidifies Paul as a tragic antihero, even more than the first novel, and yet again leaves you wondering about humanity and our capacity for destruction.

But it wasn't all doom and gloom! So many cool things about this books as well: the political scheming, everything that has to do with Alia, the Thleilaxu and the Face Dancer business, Paul's humanity at odds with who he has become, and of course the ghola... THE GHOLA! Will I ever get enough of the Dune universe? Probably not. And even though this was, in many ways, the perfect ending to Paul's story (even if it felt a bit short), I just know there is much more to be told here, and I can't wait to see where Frank Herbert took this next!