ظالمين أفلاطون يا جماعة

Great to read in companion with the Symposium. Socrates at his absolute best here. For and against speeches on whether it’s better to befriend as a lover or no. His ultimate aim is to point Phaedrus to the task of philosophy which is superior and indeed a prerequisite to good speech making and rhetoric. Really enjoyed this one.

Es ist ein Dialog zwischen Platon der Älteren und Phaidros der Jüngeren. Sie reden über die Liebe. Die Kunst der Rede, das Wissen und es nicht zu Kennen... Ein sehr tief philosophische Bedeutung/Interpretation. Lässt sich aber dennoch leicht zu lesen. Nur das sich beiden in vielem Wissen und in dem Buch nicht zu erklären bekommt.

After procrastinating on my assigned readings for about two months, I finally got around to reading Phaedrus.

There is much to say about Phaedrus. For one, it houses Plato's famous Chariot Analogy. I always find it fascinating when Plato, speaking through Socrates, presents classical Greek myths and integrate them with his philosophy. This dialogue also serves as a fantastic companion to his Symposium, especially on the topic of Eros. Eventually, I will get around to reading that one—ideally before my final.

That said, I am rating this text lower because of the detailed description and discussion of pederasty. Although, and this will be something I will look into, Plato's description of the young boy in love involves such a similar dynamic to that of Lacan's mirror stage that I cannot help but wonder what its implications are.

3/5

Ο Δάσκαλος Λιαντίνης έλεγε για τον Πλατωνικό Φαίδρο ότι " είναι το ωραιότερο ερωτικό ποίημα της παγκόσμιας λογοτεχνίας!! Στο βαθμό που είμαι ένας επαρκής αναγνώστης, δεν βρίσκω πιο όμορφο και πιο μεγάλο κατόρθωμα στο χώρο της ερωτικής ποίησης από τον Πλατωνικό Φαίδρο. Είναι ο κατεξοχήν ερωτικός Διάλογος..."

Phaedrus is a beautiful dialogue of Plato. I confess, I listened to the whole thing while laying down mulch for hours with my earbuds. Librivox.org, man. Plato first sets the stage by narrating a scene of playful leisure to set the stage for layered, increasingly deeper contemplation. The dialogue offers valuable, time-tested insight and guidance in the life of the mind and itself embodies the insight.

Perhaps we get the word philosophy from this dialogue. At least in it Socrates defines the types of persons who devote themselves to wisdom as "lovers of wisdom." He says they are not themselves wise, as wisdom, he caveats, is an attribute of God alone, but they love wisdom.

There is much that is memorable, much that is strikingly relevant. Socrates recounts as an Egyptian tale of ancient wisdom how a bird invented writing and blithely assumed it would assist people's memories. His mythical interlocutor shrewdly responded by saying that often inventors are not the best judges of the effects of their inventions and that writing would in actuality have a deleterious effect on our memory because people would begin to rely on it rather than their memories. He was right. This strikes me as undyingly current, strikingly relevant today. As we continue to experience huge technological innovations such as the Internet, we ought not to be too sanguine and self-blinding in our enthusiasms and enjoyments. After the industrial revolution, etc., etc. we need to learn to dignify our discriminatory powers more so that every reserve about uses of technology is not treated as fanatical, obtuse, weird, a too cumbersome to think about issue.

Plato also has brilliant, memorable sections where he likens human beings to two horses drawing a chariot, one strong and toward the upright and good, the other drawing down to the lower and more base. One section I remember vividly describes with this analogy a youth's sexual desire and the competing directions of the horses. Socialization of the sexual impulse.

There is also a significance to the whole tone set at the beginning, as I alluded to earlier. It is out of a self permission and a permission among friends for leisure that this contemplative height arises. It is easier with friends. Certain capacities in the mind have to be valued enough by a society and the avant garde of the mind in that society for this to be accomplished. A too pressing 'practicality' does not give due honor to philosophy and doctrine and it ironically becomes the most impractical of all viewed from a distance, a distance it does not allow itself.

I'm not sure about this, but I think the Phaedrus is probably among the most famous of the Socratic dialogues. On the surface, the first half of the dialogue pertains to the benefits and harms of erosic love, whereas the second is dedicated to one of Plato's favourite topics, the uses and abuses of rhetoric. However, I think its greatest contribution—and certainly its most discussed—is the Analogy of the Chariot, which provides insight both into Plato's conception of the soul and his theory of forms. The soul, Plato tells us, is like a chariot, with the charioteer driven by a charioteer (reason) and led by a good horse (the noble emotions) and a bad horse (desire). In the well-ordered soul, reason tames desire in such a way that it can pursue what is highest and most beautiful. I don't think it quite ranks among the very best of Plato's dialogues—Republic, Gorgias, Theatetus and the like—but it's close.

Συγκλονιστικό!
Δε θα αναφερθώ παρα μόνο επιγραμματικά στο φιλοσοφικό μέρος του διαλόγου.
Σε αυτόν ο Πλάτωνας μας δίνει αρκετά στοιχεία της θεωρίας των Ιδεών, για την θεώρηση του της ψυχής και για την γνώση. Παράλληλα καταφέρεται εναντίον των σοφιστών και της ρητορικής. Στο τελευταίο μέρος μιλά για την ανωτερότητα του προφορικού έναντι του γραπτού λόγου.
Κυρίως θα αναφερθώ στο λογοτεχνικό μέρος του διαλόγου.
Ποιός Κούντερα και Φρομ, Ρίτσος και Καβάφης; Ο Πλάτωνας μας προσφέρει την ωραιότερη εικόνα για τον έρωτα και όλα αυτά 2500 χρόνια πριν.. Όλος ο διάλογος μιλά για τον έρωτα αλλά η παλινωδία του Σωκράτη είναι από τα ωραιότερα και ποιητικότερα κείμενα που έχω διαβάσει! Και είμαι σίγουρος ότι το έριξε το γκομενάκι..!

Το κείμενο δεν είναι εύκολο ακόμη και από την άριστη μετάφραση του Θεοδωρακόπουλου. Τα σχόλια επίσης στις 200 πρώτες σελίδες είναι πολύ επεξηγηματικά για όποιον δεν είναι γνωστής της Πλατωνικής φιλοσοφίας.


Καλή ανάγνωση σε όλους!

Plato at his most playful. First Socrates presents one argument about romantic love (in a nutshell--that it's dangerous and not to be messed with), then professes to have changed his mind and presents an extreme counter to his own argument, (that love is a reminder of our true spiritual form and should be sought above all else). He finally reveals that he's just been messing with Phaedrus in order to show him how unwieldy and unreliable the art of rhetoric can be.

This is a short dialogue and I read it quickly. It's the one with the argument against the invention of writing.

Basically Socrates (the character) is suspicious of any attempt to replace a process that uses the whole of a human's abilities (like spoken discourse) with an automated process that's simpler and more rigid, like written language. A book can't talk back to you, can't explain the nuances; a book is dumber than a wise human. (Just like, in the Laws, Plato is skeptical of legal codes because a formally codified law is dumber than a wise human.) I think this is a valuable concern, especially in an age of automation.

“Phaedrus” is structured as a dialogue between Socrates and Phaedrus that explores the nature of love, provides a critical perspective on rhetoric and communications, and insights into the cultural and intellectual context of ancient Greece. With its philosophical depth, engaging style, as well as historical significance, it is a valuable addition to anyone’s reading list.

Very interesting and I thoroughly enjoyed it.