Community Reviews

Rating(3.9 / 5.0, 100 votes)
5 stars
30(30%)
4 stars
33(33%)
3 stars
37(37%)
2 stars
0(0%)
1 stars
0(0%)
100 reviews
April 17,2025
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4.25/5 — Series is fun, good stories. Also made me think about the deeper, conceptual sides of order and chaos. In fairness, some books in this series are better than others and it was a long time ago so I don’t remember which were which, but I’d say the series averages out to a bit over 4 stars for me.
April 17,2025
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I read the first three in this series 30 years ago and noticed how the quality dropped off so fast. Going back to re-read, even the first book is just sloppy. It's a really neat idea. And the writing style in the first book, with it's stilted early 70's jargon, is sorta cute but inconsistently used... and forced when it is. If somebody Has done fan fiction in this universe I'd consider it, but this is just rough sledding.
April 17,2025
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I was still new to fantasy, having been a hardcore horror and sci-fi fan, then going through all of Zelazny's other works, when I decided to sit down to these stories.
Seriously, I was impressed with the easy progression into a multi-universe view delineated between ultimate order and ultimate chaos. Gorgeous magic system where you follow mandalas, epic battles, and the almost requisite tripe of amnesia. (Oh, sorry, i meant trope.) I loved the first 5 books better than the second 5, but Merlin's story did have a more epic feel, in my opinion.
It's still hard to find fantasy as good as what he wrote, although I'm still willing to keep looking. :)
April 17,2025
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Нет, на рецензию это не похоже. Это, скорее, некое собрание небольших отзывов и возмущений по каждому роману цикла. Так вот:

1. Девять принцев Амбера.

Это было прекрасно. Чудесный роман, знакомство с миром Амбера и его Тенями, с Корвином и его семьей. Это было увлекательно и интересно, роман был прочитан в 2 подхода. Хоть повествование и ведется от лица главного героя, но почему-то ниразу не возникает мысли что герой этот положительный. Такой же, как и вся его семейка — горло брату перегрызет за трон. Немного раздражает что ГГ практически всесильный, подобен богу, и тд. Но, слава богу, это сглаживается объяснением, что в семье все такие и вообще это нормально.

2. Ружья Авалона.

Тут уже всё не так хорошо. Плохие, долгие описания, которые раздражают. Казалось бы, вроде и куча приключений, и переживания всякие (а динамика-то какая!), а как-то не вызывает никаких эмоций, читаешь с покерфейсом, и думаешь "эм. ну окей". С другой же стороны, самого Корвина мы узнаем более близко (что само собой), и ближе к концу романа я уже подумал, что он не совсем поганец. Хотя дальше будет виднее. Наверное.

Оценку, возможно, позже исправлю, ибо не исключено что "Ружья Авалона" дают емалый задел следующим романам цикла. Ну а пока что, отдельно взятый роман весьма проходной.

3. Знак Единорога.

Третий роман Хроник показался мне куда интереснеее предыдущего, но с одним НО. О чем роман? Да в принципе абсолютно ниочем. Мне он кажется некой частью, которая соединяет предыдущий и последующий романы. Без него повествование вышло бы рваным. Наверное.

Да, конечно же у романа есть плюсы — вы таки больше узнаем о королевской семье, кто кому приходится, кто внебрачное дитя, кого не призна король — и это здорово. Это немного проясняет ситуацию с престолонаследием. Всплывают новые подробности. Всё еще не понятно, кто же такая Дара. Так же немного неясен Тир на Ног’тх и что что там вообще произошло.

4. Рука Оберона.

Название романа — один большущий спойлер. Это стало понятно в самом начале, собственно, когда и появилась эта рука.

Многое проясняется: Дворкин, Оберон, их связь между собой, Камень... Камень! Всплывают новые подробности о Пути.

В общем, с моей невысокой колокольни могу сказать, что событий тут много больше чем в прошлом романе. Или показалось?

Но блин. Зачем это краткое изложение событий предыдущих трех романов в начале? К чему? Бессмыслица, лишь растягивающая объём произведения.

Еще. Вода. Очень много воды. Опять всё те же повторения описаний природы. Ну ведь абсолютно же ничего нового.

5. Владения Хаоса.

Пятый роман был прочитан практически на одном дыхании.

События? Какие такие события? Вы о чем? 70-80% романа занимает путешествие Корвина к Дворам Хаоса. Вот вся эта середина книги — чистейшая ерунда. Это слиишком долго, слишком затянуто. Нет, интерес, конечно же, не пропадает, но это путешествие длилось слишком долго, и толком ничего за всё это время не происходило.

Из того, что смутило: говорящие животные. ШТА? Нет, ну я понимаю, близость Хаоса возможно накладывает некоторый отпечаток на происходящее, но... Путь. Ну вот хоть убейте, не могу я поверить, что Корвин мог справиться с тем, с чем не справился Оберон. ну не могу, и всё.

ЗЫ: разговор с Хуги — чистой воды пелевинщина. Вот покажите мне этот отрывок, без указания авторства, я буду уверен что это Пелевин (увы, так вышло что Пелевина я прочитал раньше, чем Желязны).

6. Карты Судьбы.

Пятикнижие Мерлина началось вполне на уровне. Но всё равно, знаете, отдает некой вторичностью. Возникает новая угроза — Призрачное колесо, изобретение Мерлина, обладающее поистине огромными силами и возможностями. Конечно же, всё делалось во благо, а получилось как всегда. Глупо же давать машине такого могущества возможность самообучения, эдакий ИИ. Глупо и всё тут. Но ничего не поделаешь, нужно теперь всё это расхлёбывать. В принципе, более менее нормальная арка для пятикнижия.

7. Кровь Амбера.

Сложно что-то написать на этот роман. Ну, во-первых, прочитан он был за рекордные сроки, как для этого цикла — за один день. Во-вторых, толком ничего не запомнилось. Возможно это всё из-за скорости, не исключено. Но с другой же стороны понравилось гораздо больше первого романа второго пятикнижия. Странно увидеть новых жен Оберона, ведь, казалось бы, генеалогическое древо уже было описано в подробностях. Странно видеть Мерлина настолько всемогущим, ведь переняв способности родов Амбера и Хаоса, он вобрал их абсолютно полностью (а это весьма странно). Странно видеть новые возможности Карт. Да, Корвин не знал всех их возможностей, но откуда Мерлин их узнал? Таких вот несовпадения довольно много на самом деле.

ЗЫ: да, нотки бразильского сериала решают.

8. Знак Хаоса.

Ну что за дела? Снова новые родственнички? Ну сколько можно?

Моё предположение о том, что главным "злодеем" будет Призрачное колесо, кажется, оказалось не верным. Ну ладно, и без этого врагов хватает у королевских кровей.

На первый взгляд стало больше доверия. Мерлин со многими советуется, прежде чем совершить какой-либо шаг. Доверяет семье? Ну мы-то уж знаем, что не стоит этого делать.

Зрение Логруса — его слишком много, слишком часто оно используется, возникает впечатление, что Мерлин без него как без рук.

Да и сражения какие-то вялые — никаких тебе побоев, ранений, отходняков после ранений, сплошная магия. Слишком много её стало, слишком много стало вокруг магов. Видимо, сменилось поколение, а вместе с ним и пришла мода на магию.

9. Рыцарь Теней.

Четвертый роман пятикнижия Мерлина это нечто. Это гребаная наркомания. Путешествие Мерлина в каком-то Междутенье, там где нога человеческая не ступала — вот так да! Фракир — няшка. Но тут я немного недопонял. В этом Междутенье какой таки выбор за него сделали?

Снова же возникают всякие магические новинки. Откуда они взялись? Как? Меч Брэнда? Вот хоть убейте, помнится мне, что говорилось что Грейсвандир единственный в своем роде, или нечто подобное.

Почти финальное поедание плоти Мерлина — это еще что? Ну что за каннибализм?

И да, битва Порядка и Хаоса, Пути и Логруса шикарна. Честно, я ожидал такого, но в последнем романе цикла, а никак не сейчас. Теперь только и думай, чего ж там дальше будет, должна же история как-то адекватно закончиться?

10. Принц Хаоса.

Весьма странный роман вышел. Сумбурненько. Складывается впечатление, что дописывалось всё в спешке, и с единственной целью — поскорее закончить. Некоторые сюжетные линии мало того, что не раскрываются, так они еще и бессмысленны.

Джарт ни с того, ни с сего берет и переходит на другую сторону: зачем, почему? Нет, ну конечно поясняется парой строк, но что с того? Это всё равно что если бы в конце "Карт судьбы" последней строчкой написать "А потом Мерлин сделал то и то, и все жили долго и счастливо".

Про Маску вообще все забыли, как только стало известно кто под ней. И к чему тогда все предшествующие события?

Единственный плюс романа — Хаос. Его много. Этого не хватало в предыдущих романах, и вообще странно что такие подробные описания Дворов появились лишь в самом конце цикла.
April 17,2025
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This ten-book epic may have been misunderstood and hence underrated by science fiction and fantasy readers, because it is neither; call it, for lack of luckier terms, metaphysical fiction. It takes Plato's read on reality and says, okay, say he's right. What then? What's the unwritten epic of what really went on? Then he writes it all up in a style that would have made Raymond Chandler insanely envious. If you don't LOVE the Amber ramble you have small imagination and a teeny tiny sense of humor. Of course it's not consistently wonderful throughout all ten volumes, but not since Ariosto's Orlando Furioso have I indulged in such a luscious read.
April 17,2025
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We’re all shadows in Zelazny’s world. Reflections of the one true world, Amber. Infinite in number and possibility. And the children of Oberon are the gods. Some duty-bound, some languid, but all mostly petty.

Zelazny creates an epic mix of paganistic pantheons and Milton’s Paradise Lost. The Amberites bicker and plot in Ovid-worthy tales. Their familial infighting is something out of Greek, Roman and Norse myth. Then throw in the allusions to Chaos as a Hell, Amber as Heaven, Earth as a favored Shadow and you’ve successfully, and unnecessarily, overanalyzed a fantastic fantasy tale.

The first five books, commonly called the Corwin cycle, are unquestionably the best. The second set of five, the Merlin cycle, expands the foundation of the Amber universe to the point where it begins to totter. Zelazny is maybe too zealous in expanding the myth behind the workings of the Pattern and Logrus. Kind of like how we were all happy with the mystery of the Force until Lucas used midi-chlorians to sciencefuck a perfectly good faith. Anyway, Zelazny’s imagination gets unbridled as the books progress and the ride becomes increasingly bumpy.

For the diehard fans, the book inspired the 1991 classic diceless RPG Amber. A game I obsessed over for a couple of years. Apparently the rights to the game have been tied up for several years so nothing has really developed on that front. However, a recent Kickstarter by the same makers of the original developed another diceless Amber spin-off called Lords of Gossamer and Shadow. Check it out and if anyone is interested in trying it out, let me know.
April 17,2025
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I wanted to read my "Z"s books but I discovered I had three books of the ten book series, so I decided to buy a new book (surprise!) that had all ten.

This is actually two five-book "cycles" that take place in the fantasy world of Amber. The first five are about Corwin, a scheming prince of Amber who suddenly regains his awareness after a long stint of amnesia on earth. Zelazny does a very good job of world-building-without-world-building. That is to say, he never loses sight of the reader's ignorance about the affairs of his fantasy world. He has a couple of means of handling this which range from the almost comical: "I've never mentioned my sword, Greyswandir, have I? Well, that's my sword."—this is not a direct quote but you get the idea, to more fleshed out backstories.

The first cycle (written in the late '60s/early '70s) is truly tremendous, a five-star affair all the way. Corwin is an anti-hero who finds a kind of redemption, but mostly just gets a clue (heh). He starts out not knowing anything and bluffs his way into a palace intrigue that he's been hundreds of years out of, and never really had that great a grasp of anyway. It goes very badly for him, and as he comes back from this, he ends up seeing his brothers and sisters in a new light. This also often works out badly for him, and he ends up nigh destroying the world in his attempts to reform the family into something less wicked.

This makes for a satisfying journey that, by the end, leaves Corwin as a genuinely heroic figure in a heroic struggle.

The second cycle was written in the '80s and is not as good. Even not-as-good Zelazny tends to be pretty darn good, but a few things stand out, especially having read both cycles back-to-back. First, there's swearing in the book, and that doesn't really help. Part of the charm of the books is the mix of contemporary values and perspectives in a world where times, cultures and technologies are blended. (Amber encompasses all realities.) The swearing is probably appropriate for the time and place, but it didn't work for me.

More significantly, however, is that our hero in this one is Merlin, Corwin's son. He is a pretty decent guy straight up, so we lack the drama of the first one, in terms of our hero's internal change. The plotting seems less tight: Whereas in the first cycle, things mentioned in the first book don't get explained till the fifth book—and Zelazny's handling of reminding the reader about these lingering questions is masterful—in this cycle, the fifth book is full of stuff never mentioned before and it's less satisfying.

It also ends with a literal deus ex machina, which didn't quite work for me, even though it was well set up. It's possible that the author kind of pulled off a stunt with the first cycle: Planning the books with the possibility that not all five might be published made him tighten everything up a lot. But with the second cycle, he not only knew that they'd all be published, but that there was room for more. (Zelazny died at 58 of cancer.)

Anyway, it's a good read. The first five books are among the best fantasy I've read. Hell, the second five probably are, too, just a bit anticlimactic.
April 17,2025
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Perverzija!
Zelaznijev stil pisanja je neponovljiv, covek ima svoje "atribute" he he
Delo mu je jako koliko i prezime.
Ni za zivu glavu ne propustajte ovaj serijal, krucijalno je vazno da ga procitate kako bi mogli da gradite misljenje o tome sta je dobra, sta vanserijska a sta osrednje napisana fantastika.
Samo cu jos reci da mi Amber u polici stoji pored Hiperiona i Iliona, na najvisoj polici!
April 17,2025
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I rescued this monster some few years ago, probably from the local transfer station and have been eyeballing it ever since. My latest sci-fi read was less than 200 pages so I feel justified in re-visiting that part of my book shelves. I read "Damnation Alley' a while back and liked it a lot and have likely read at least some short stories by RZ as well. So here we go off to a good start as RZ gets the action started right away. He's a pretty straight-forward writer. Blunt even. The prose isn't what you'd call inspiring, but in this genre the tale's the thing. Connections to/suggestions of other sci-fi/fantasy = "The World of Tiers" for starters. The cover reminds of "Lord Valentine's Castle." I assume more will pop up. The hero(I assume) closely resembles Hell Tanner from "D. Alley" too. The trip from NYC to Amber(I'm still in the middle of it) is pretty crazy/imaginative and suggestive of Catherynne M. Valente's "The Girl/Boy Who ... Fairyland" series. I wonder if she read this stuff.

- All the smoking is distracting. We also get a bit of the old women's body parts focus and some casual sex among the Amber gods.

So this stuff was written during the 70's and shows it. RZ has decided to have a lot of the dialogue be in the mode of hard-bitten 50's-60's or laid-back 60's-70's adventures. You dig? This aligns with the style of "Damnation Alley" but it definitely is a far piece from the high-falutin' "Lord of the Rings" saga. Also deliberate I'm sure. The tobacco burning and inhaling continues relentlessly. Seems like every few pages Corwin has to do the "I lit a cigarette." thing. Maybe it helps him think. I ASSUME that Zelazny was a smoker and that this is perhaps a raised middle finger to the anti-smoking movement of the seventies. Things are different now for sure. It does bother me a little, along with the women's body parts attention. This reminds me of Dan Simmons. To me it indicates a writer without enough sense to realize that smoking would probably seem out of place in fantasy settings. Then again, Shadow-Earth had plenty of smoking, so I suppose that maybe it does make sense after all. Whatever ...

- I thought that "I had escaped." might be the last sentence of story #1, but I was wrong. That sentence(verbatim) WAS close to the end, however. Me so smart!

- About that finger-and-toenail growing thing while you're in a dungeon. You can keep them down simply by rubbing them against the stone walls of the cell. Dogs that are outside and active a lot of the time don't need to have their claws trimmed. Nature does it for them.

- plenty of misprints so far

Now in the middle of part two ("The Guns of Avalon") after last night's reading. My forward progress was aided by a gap of 33 missing pages. There was no actual physical gap in the book, the pages seem to have been omitted by the printer. Weird ... One of RZ's great assets is his assertive prose. He doesn't waste words and keeps the old plot ball rolling along nicely. This makes up for the general lack of literature cred. I imagine that didn't bother him much, as it might've Tolkien, for instance. Last night included a bit of the poetic-delirium stuff that was in "Damnation Alley." He does that well enough and doesn't ramble on too much with it.

- BTW, this is not the COMPLETE be-all-and-end-all "Amber" book as a reader might assume. RZ wrote other related bits and pieces(short stories, etc.) that are not included here.

#3(Sign of the Unicorn) is in the books - as it were - and all I can say is a bucket of yellow golf balls to anyone who can explain WHAT it was all about. After a ton of action in the first two stories, we get a bit of action and: A)a whole lot of twisty and impenetrable Agatha Christie kind of mystery stuff as various political intrigue/conspiracy speculations are presented to Corwin for his consideration, and B) a lot of delirious prose near the end of the story as Roger Zelazny unleashes his inner William Burroughs. There was some of this - just enough in fact - in "Damnation Alley," but perhaps too much in this story. I have NO IDEA what it was all about. Pretty spacey. Drug-induced perhaps? Did Zelazny himself even know what the meaning was of he was writing? ONWARD! ...

#4(The Hand of Oberon) ... the action continues to be toned down so far in this one relative to the beginning two tales as more of the "Big Picture" gets filled in for the benefit of Corwin as well as the reader. Still, there are enough fights, flights and battles to keep one's blood up. Definitely a page-turner for the most part.

Finished with #4 last night as the action and plot twists keep coming. Last night's conclusion came with a neat plot twist, one that had been hinted at a bit by the author. There's still a lot explanation going on as Corwin has to sift through the stories of his many conniving siblings. Who and what to believe and trust are a challenge for him.

- as seems to be the case with almost every book I read these days, old or new, there are lots of misprints and other text errors.

Finished with the first half a couple of nights ago by finishing "The Courts of Chaos." Swear to God there was a scene straight out of "Darby O'Gill and the Little People"! I'll take a break now, as Zelazny did(8 years) and read some other stuff before continuing. My overall opinion so far? A bit dated I guess but still entertaining. That Corwin can take a licking and keep on ticking - big time!

- RZ throws in a little of the Nordic mythology stuff to go along with all the rest. He borrows from many different mythic stories.

After a little break I'm back at it with the second half of the saga. The first installment is "The Trumps of Doom" and Corwin is not mentioned so far. Instead, we get his son Merlin as narrator, and just when things seem to be a bit draggy, BOOM! ... it's clobberin' time, it's fantasy time, and it's movin' time. As with the first five tales, a fair amount of time is spent with Merlin moving in and out of fast-changing fantasy landscapes. For some readers there's probably too much of that stuff, but it gives RZ a chance to break out his descriptive chops. I'm OK with it.

- cigarette smoking seems to have bee replaced by pipe smoking somewhere along the way

- Merle? I'd prefer "Lin" for a name for our hero but ...

Finished up with #6 last night with our narrator/hero locked up, much as his old man was at the almost end of Part 1. Meanwhile, that same old man(Corwin) is out there somewhere - maybe - running around doing ??? - much the same as in the first five parts when it was Corwin's daddy(Oberon) hanging out there in mystery-land. Things seem a bit repetitive after a while.

- The road from Santa Fe up to the ski area(Ski Santa Fe) - been there, done that, also not in winter.

- Merle's Ghostwheel takes on a prickly and dangerous selfhood, a la HAL in "2001: A Space Odyssey" and Elefsis in "Silently and Very Fast."

Now into story #7 - "Blood of Amber" - still entertaining.

Finished #7 last night and on to "Sign of Chaos." While there is a certain sameness to all the crazy comings and goings and monsters and magic and fighting and stuff, the author keeps up a decent level of interest due to his imaginative chops. One minor complaint for me is that the plot is VERY intricate and complicated. I sort of gave up trying to keep track of it all. Even Merlin is struggling trying to figure it all out!

RZ rolls out his imagination and descriptive chops in a passage where Merlin gets drawn into an LSD trip that Luke is experiencing(involuntarily) - crazy stuff.

Slowly getting towards the end as the characters and complications are piling up and wearing me down bit. Still, "only" about 300 pages to go ...

Finished with #8 and now on to "Knight of Shadows." ...

And then there was one ... #10 = "Prince of Chaos" ... In general I think I can say that the first half is better than the second half. I suppose it might be asking too much to expect Zelazny to keep coming up with interesting stuff given the limits of the world(s) within which he set these stories. Might have been more fun if the second half had more to do with Earth-Shadow. Instead we get a seemingly endless tangle of plot twists, new characters, more battling with wizards and monsters and a minimum of originality/humanity. It does go on ...

Into the final chapter as the sort-of obvious endgame presents itself. Still reasonably well-written, if a bit repetitive at this point.

HOOOOOOOO-Rah! Finally finished with this beast last night. The highlight of the endgame was a well-described sorcery duel in which Merlin outdoes both his formidable mother and his devious brother(he has more than one, of course). All in all I'd say it was a fun ride, if not exactly transcendent. Both Harry Potter and the Lord of the Rings were better. I have to hand it to the late Mr. Zelazny, however. His descriptive pen never wavered.
April 17,2025
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Update (Please read this first before complaining about my rating)

People keep complaining that my 1 star is unfair because some books were better than others. Here's how I see this work. I don't see it as different books the way one would read say an Agatha Christie novel. Each Hercule Poirot or Miss Marple mystery is a stand alone even if characters recur from book to book. They are meant to be read as stand alone novels and should be treated as such.

This book, on the other hand, is clearly a single narrative telling one story. The fact that was published as separate books does not change that. The Count of Monte Cristo was published as a serial. Should I give each chapter of that book a separate rating? Similarly, War and Peace is, in the text, divided into several books. Should it be rated on the basis of each book too?

We would never presume to rate Hamlet on the basis of each act, nor a symphony on each movement. We understand that these are works that have to be treated as a whole. The publishing or writing decision to split a work into several parts does not change how I approach that work.

My view is that a work stands or falls by all of its parts. If I'd wanted to rate each book separately, I would have given a GR rating to each individual book (Nine Princes in Amber, The Guns of Avalon, etc) listed here and not this edition. I didn't because I didn't read this in parts with each part a stand alone work. Given that the entire narrative is treated as a whole, I think it only fair to the author to treat his work as one whole. Some books benefit by that approach: an apparently weak beginning or middle may be improved when seen in the context of the ending or as a whole. This one, sadly, did not.

I am sure there are those who will disagree with this approach. You are certainly welcome to rate books how you please. There is, however, a reason to my rating this work this way.

Original Review

Seriously? One star? WTF??

Yep, one star. Okay, admittedly, the first half of the series is not bad. I'd have given it 3 stars for its twists and turns and fairly well constructed plot. The second half is so bad, I just have to wonder if the writer of the second half is the same as the writer of the first half. Maybe the second half was written by some pattern-construct or a shadow Zelazny twenty five tiers down. What did I object to? Let's see, where to start.

1. The inconsistent and wooden characterization--characters change as the plot requires and not through some natural evolution. Jurt! What the fuck was going on with Jurt? First, he has this long history of trying to kill Merlin, then snap! he changes his mind? Week old milk doesn't turn that fast.
2. The clunky dialogue that made all the characters sound like they were American actors in a bad soap opera despite the fact that they live in some totally foreign and exotic environment like the Courts of Chaos. So Merlin's mother Dara sounds like she could come from the cast of The Bold and the Beautiful and Merlin himself says, "I got chewed out." Really, duuuddde? "Chewed out"?
3. The multiple rabbits that get pulled out of a hat. So, lesee. Zelazny has the signs of Chaos and Pattern fighting. Merlin has access to both powers, but now is too afraid to use them. So fortuitously, he just happens to find a ring, a spikard, about three-quarter way through the series that endows him with a new source of power sufficient to match the two signs of ultimate power. Can you say deus ex machina? Everybody now, all together! DEUS EX MACHINA!!
4. The plot! The plot that was like yesteryear's stale soap opera. The mad stalker ex-girlfriend, the family feud, the controlling mother, the best friend cum enemy, the possessed friend. Honestly! The only clunker it didn't have was a Bobby Ewing moment. Actually, wait a minute…

Ugh! I feel like I just watched a year's worth of Jerseylicious reruns with this book. Shudder!

April 17,2025
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The Great Book of Amber is a book that struggles to keep being interesting. As in, the ideas are interesting, sometimes the execution is interesting as well, but it never lasts.

These interesting things that never lasts are just the tip of the problem, as the writing style is terrible, the plot is structured oddly, but not well, and that it never takes a break from being oh so dark and serious. All of these things combine to make a tiresome read about how important it is that the right person sits on the throne.

I would recommend it to writing students as a way of seeing how you shouldn't write certain parts of a story, but I don't think it's useful for that many other people.
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