A great, readable book about past and present societies, their decisions regarding societal and environmental challenges that led to their collapse or survival.

On the side, I found the book very informative about the history of the societies. I particularly enjoy those about the Greenland's Norse(Viking). This book inspire me to expand my reading to those about archaeology and history.

One important lesson: ability and willingness to change core values (religious or secular) proved to be essential for survival. Emigrating to live in a faraway country myself and seeing common problems of integration among the immigrants in Europe, I can relate to some of the past societies' experience in which they kept clinging to the past habits and identity. That may create difficulties to both migrant and host population or as in the case of Greenland's Viking, lead to their collapse.

A book recommended to anyone who enjoyed The Overstory and who wants a non-fictional account of many of the ideas there.

Very detailed book by author of “Guns, Germs and Steel” – enjoyable and provocative, although very detailed and easiest to read simply cover-to-cover while trying to absorb the bigger picture.

Diamond’s big theme is to look at historical environmental induced societal collapse and to identify five main reasons that cause collapse (or its opposite). These are: damage that people inadvertently inflict on their environment; the impact of climate change (particularly sudden climate change as society may be adapted to very different conditions); hostile neighbours; decreased support by friendly neighbours (e.g. the collapse of trading partners); and most importantly societies own response to the environmental problems.

In a separate chapter on the latter he identifies reasons for inadequate responses as: failure to anticipate a problem (either because it had not happened before – or particularly in pre-literate societies because they have forgotten past occurrences, or because of misapplying analogies e.g. something that worked in a different situation); failure to perceive a problem has arisen (e.g. hidden problems or creeping issues – slow trends masked by fluctuations); irrational reactions even though a problem has been identified (groupthink, tragedy of the commons, clashes if interest, clinging to values which are no longer helpful).

Opening chapter is Diamond’s comments on the environmental problems in his own area of Montana – although I could understand that the point of this chapter was to place historical issues in modern terms I actually found little identification with this chapter. I also found the sections at the end on the role of business a little self serving (Diamond has been criticised by other environmentalists for attempting to engage with e.g. oil and mining companies).

He then considers a number of historical civilisation collapses: Easter Island (deforestation); Pitcairn and Henderson Islands (collapse of trading partners); the Native American Anasazi (environmental damage/population growth combined with climate change); Mayas (as for Anasazi although with hostile neighbours); Norse Greenland (a very detailed treatment where the failure of the Norse compared with the survival of the Inuit is due to all of the five factors).

He then considers some historical societies that succeeded (Iceland, New Guinea highlands, old Japan).

In each of these he draws parallels with the modern world and brings this together in a chapter at the end.

In the modern era he discusses the Rwandan tragedy, contrasts Dominican Republic and Haiti and then considers the developing situation in Australia and Japan.

Having enjoyed Guns, Germs and Steel a lot, I was excited to read Collapse. However, it ended up being a mixed bag for me.

The first half, in which he talks about ancient societies, their circumstances, why they failed and why they didn't change their behaviour, was extremely interesting and fascinating. I enjoyed reading about the Maya, Iceland, Greenland (even Vinland) and some Polynesian islands a lot, and I can definitely recommend the book if you want to find out more about their history and fate.
The only thing that I'd criticise is that after a while, it felt quite repetitive. Jared Diamond mentions the major reasons for the failure of societies pretty early on, and the following chapters felt to me like he was trying to prove his point over and over again.

The second half, which is about modern societies, couldn't hold my interest, mainly because I couldn't shake off the feeling that a lot of the information there must be outdated by now. The book was published in 2005, and a lot has happened since then. I constantly felt like checking the current situation online, and because of that, the book felt more like a chore than a fun and interesting read.

So, if you're interested in the general premise and don't mind a lot of research to understand the current situation, this book could be for you.

An amazingly informative book on the failure of some past societies, an insight into some highly volatile current socities and the lessons to be learned. Diamond identifies a five-point framework of contributing factors: environmental damage, climate change, hostile neighbors, friendly trade partners and society's response to its environmental problems. These factors apply today as well and the biggest lesson to be learned is that the perishing of Maya, Easter Island and Greenland Norse societies could happen to us in our globalized existence as well. We have no reason for arrogance and should get off our high "First World" horses. A highly recommendable read!

I collapsed after reading this. What a slog. Good, but dense, detailed, and darn long. I don't particularly care for Jared Diamond's writing style. He's detailed, scholarly, and repetitive. There is so much information I had to take frequent breaks and snatch some quick reads in-between chapters. I almost abandoned it a few times but then I'd find a different chapter interesting and get hooked again. Diamond has solid arguments for explaining why societies collapse and while fascinating, he's overly detailed in spots - at least for me. His thesis shows five factors that influence the collapse of a society: environmental damage, climate change, hostile neighbors, decreased support by friendly neighbors, and society's response to environmental problems. The book is full of great information and I can see recommending students to read certain chapters, but not the whole shebang - unless they are persistent readers.

Many of the societies he examines collapsed because of their fragile environments. While Diamond doesn't play judge and is sympathetic toward those who made decisions that were wrong and caused the downfall of their societies from ancient to modern times, he is judgmental against those who obviously don't care about the environment, who "rape-and-run" making quick cash and leave environmental disasters for citizens and governments to clean up. He balances this analysis of greedy businesses with stellar businesses whose good practices show how everyone can benefit when a company creates a product that respects the environment.

"Environmental determinism" looks at the physical environment such as climate and geography trying to determine how it affects societies. This concept has had negative press over the years and has led to some people using racism or superiority of intellect over other cultures based the oppressor being smarter than the suppressed group of people. Diamond is always refuting this and he also takes his studies further looking at multiple aspects of a hypothesis that include climate, geography, botany, science, economics and more. It is one reason his books are so dense and slow to read. But they are fascinating and require thoughtful reflection.

He has quite a few great quotes and I would have expanded on them if my Nook eReader hadn't deleted all my highlights. I will try to remember some from my bad memory. The genocide in Rwanda was a product of land disputes, deforestation, exports, and too many people living in extreme poverty. There was a direct correlation between starvation and increased crime. Diamond explains how the ethnic violence was not based solely on ethnic hatred but tied in with land disputes. The argument is compelling and interesting. Australia's fragile environment is a great chapter to read as well.

Diamond discusses the rarity of a leader who has the courage to anticipate a potential problem and take steps to solve it before it becomes a crisis. "Such leaders expose themselves to criticism or ridicule before it becomes obvious to everyone that some action is necessary." Think of all the leaders you've come across in your life that surround themselves with people that tell them what they want to hear. The ability to listen to criticism and use it constructively and not be corrupted by power is not the norm.

I thought "Collapse" and "Gun, Germs, and Steel" both had first chapters that were hard to get through. This one is too detailed on Montana and slowed the pacing. The ancient societies that collapsed were not quite as interesting as the modern ones as his analysis is more complex because he has more information to prove his hypothesis. The author is quite brilliant and worth reading.

So I was in Belize for the holiday and became fascinated with all the Mayan ruins I visited. I had been to Copan in Honduras years ago, but was reminded of the great glory of this civilization, and the controversial collapse that happened to disperse people from these great structures around 900 AD.

I love Guns Germs and Steel more than anything, it changed how I look at history and people and society, so I dug into this one, particularly the Mayan part, with great excitement. And it doesn't disappoint.

A lot of this book is clearly set up to support the author's argument, that it is the roll of the dice of how delicate the ecology is where societies set up shop, and how the societies treated them that causes collapse. Basically an extension of Guns Germs and Steel. This puts a stark face on how we should and need to consider dealing with the environment cards we're dealt though.

Nothing is more tragic than the Easter Island chapter, it is breathtaking the research and evidence that proves why they disappeared, and tragic if you think about it in the context of our earth, from which we really cannot escape, same as the Easter Islanders.

If you are an environmentalist or not, there are thought provoking ideas and statistics here that put a concrete face to a cause that has become an emotional and numbing topic. You can tell people what they SHOULD care about, what they SHOULD do, but until you convince yourself it's important, you cannot change yourself or who is around you. This book put that part of me that feels strongly about preserving/managing the environment, and made it logical and scientific again.

This is NOT a book trying to convince you to care about the environment, it's a survey of lost civilizations and how they collapsed. The awareness for me was a byproduct, and fascinating in its own right.

Extensive study on what are the main factors that force societies to collapse and others not collapse.

Can be used build studies on modern day societies collapse also.

รีวิว 22/2021
แปลจากหนังสือ: Collapse
ผู้เขียน: Jared Diamond
ผู้แปล: อรวรรณ คูหเจริญ นาวายุทธ
สำนักพิมพ์: โอ้มายก้อด
จำนวนหน้า: 797 หน้า ปกอ่อน
พิมพ์ครั้งที่ 1 — กันยายน 2552
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หนังสือเล่มนี้ชนะรางวัลพูลิตเซอร์ปี 1997
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โคตรมหากาพย์ของหนังสือ ในตำนาน ที่ต้องใช้เวลาอ่านนานมาก
เนื้อหาอัดแน่นมาก จนบางพาร์ท มึนหัวกันไปเล้ย
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สิ่งที่หนังสือ ทิ้งไว้ในหัวผมแน่ๆ คือ ทำให้เราตระหนักเรื่องสิ่งแวดล้อมเพิ่มมากขึ้น ๆๆ ชัวร์
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หนังสือเล่มนี้โดยภาพรวมจะบรรยายถึง เรื่องที่ว่า
เหตุใดสังคมในอดีตจึงล้มเหลวในการแก้ไขปัญหาสิ่งแวดล้อม จนทำให้สังคมของตนเองนั้นล่มสลายหายไป แต่บางที่ก็ไม่ถึงกับล่มสลายหายไป แต่ตกต่ำลงอย่างมีนัยยะ
โดยไอ้การล่มสลายเนี่ย มันเกิดขึ้นจากหลายสาเหตุ ที่เราอาจจะไม่เคยนึกออก เช่น
อยู่ดีๆ กระต่าย จากที่นึง มาโผล่อีกประเทศนึงมันทำให้เละได้ไง
การที่ประเทศๆ นึงเลี้ยงวัวมากไปมันมีผลขนาดไหน
การที่ประเทศๆ นึงล่าปลามากไป มันทำให้คนอดตายเลยหรือ
จนไปถึงสภาพของดิน การคุมกำเนิดประชากร และอีกมาก
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ไม่ว่าจะเป็น
- การล่มสลายของ สังคม รัฐมอนทานา
- การล่มสลายของ เกาะอีสเตอร์ในอดีต
- การล่มสลายของ เมือง มายา ในอดีต
- การล่มสลายของ ชาวนอร์ส (ไวกิ้ง)
- การล่มสลายของ ที่ราบสูงนิวกินี
- การล่มสลายของ โดมินิกัน เฮติ
- หรือ ปัญหาอื่นๆ เช่น ของ ออสเตรเลีย และ ญี่ปุ่น
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และแน่นอนแต่ละหัวข้อมันยาวมาก และ อัดแน่นไปด้วยข้อมูล
ทั้ง สัตววิทยา ธรณีวิทยา อุตุวิทยา ชุดตัวเลขมากมาย ไม่หวาดไม่ไหว
ชื่อพืช ชื่อสัตว์ ชื่อ แร่ธาตุ เยอะมากๆๆๆ
จึงทำให้อ่านยากกว่า UPHEAVAL ครับ
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.ทุกประเทศทุกที่ก็จะมีประเด็นคล้ายๆ กัน ที่ทุกคนควรใส่ใจร่วมกันอยู่ โดยหนังสือสรุปออกมาดังนี้

1. ประเด็นการขยายตัวของสังคมเมือง
2. การเลี้ยงปลาจริงๆ แล้ว มันก็ไปลดทรัพยากรปลาในธรรมชาติ เพราะปลาที่เราเลี้ยงมันก็ต้องกินอาหาร ตามธรรมชาติด้วย
3. ทุกวันนี้ความหลากหลายเชิงระบบนิเวศนั้นลดลง
4. การสึกกร่อนของดิน นั้นเกิดขึ้นเร็วกว่าการเกิดขึ้นของดินมาก
5. น้ำมันและก๊าซธรรมชาติ มันใช้แล้วหมดไป เพราะมันใช้เวลาเป็นแสน เป็นล้านปี กว่าจะออกมาได้
6. น้ำจืดในโลกนั้นมีน้อย และการแปลงน้ำเค็มเป็นน้ำตืดนั้นค่าใช้จ่ายสูงมาก
7. การใช้ประโยชน์จากพลังงานแสงอาทิตย์ และ ลม ทุกวันนี้ยังน้อยอยู่
8. สารเคมีที่มนุษย์สังเคราะห์ขึ้น มีผลกระทบต่อธรรมชาติ
9. ระวัง Alien species ไม่ว่าจะพืชหรือสัตว์ เพราะมันมีอำนาจทำลายล้างสูงมาก
10. ทุกวันนี้ ตัวการทำลายโซน ก็ยังเป็น CFC อยู่
11. จำนวนประชากรทั่วโลกกำลังเพิ่มขึ้น
12. ต้องพิจารณาผลกระทบของประชากรที่มีต่ิสิ่งแวดล้อมด้วย

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ความเห็น
- จุดสังเกตุ คือบางเรื���องที่���ู้เขียนใส่มา โดยบอกว่า เพื่อนผมในประเทศนี้เล่าให้ฟังว่า ....... ต้องระวัง ว่ามันอาจไม่น่าเชื่อถือ เท่าการที่อ้างมาจากแหล่งข้อมูลนะครับ
- การจัดการเหมือง ป่าไม้ สัมปทาน น้ำมัน สำคัญมากต้ออความเป็นอยู่ของประเทศนั้นๆ
- มีตัวอย่างที่ดีของการจัดการ ของหัวหน้าประเทศในเล่มอยู่บ้างเหมือนกัน
- มีส่วนผสมของภาษาวิชาการครึ่งนึง บรรยายแบบนักเล่าเรื่องครึ่งนึง
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9/10 ตัด 1 คะแนน เพราะ Upheaval อ่านง่ายกว่าครับ 4555 แนะนำไปเล่มนั้นก่อน

In Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed Jared Diamond shows how environmental misuse destroyed many historical civilizations and continues to damage nations today.

Collapse discusses six major reasons why civilizations fall:

1- Human ecological impacts ➡ leads to changes in climate
2-A hostile neighbor
3- A friendly neighbor who backs away from the civilization
4- Unwilling to adapt
5- Deforestation ➡ soil erosion
6- Environmental hazards (flooding, loss of wood products, crop failures and other..)

Past examples can teach us how to improve our environment. For a long time, humans have been damaging the environment, yet we may learn from those who have gone before us and restore our ecosystem.

why ⭐⭐ !! this is the answer:

I was thinking that Diamond will write something like The Third Chimpanzee (5 ⭐) which i love it, but this one is like another chapter of Guns, Germs and Steel (3⭐) (and by definition i don't give a shit about Sociology).

I only read Sociology just to understand more Anthropology!!

Yeah, we’re kinda fucked.

След “Пушки, вируси и стомана” нямах никакво желание отново да чета Даймънд, докато не изрових в дъното на едно шкафче това забравено дебело издание, отлежало кротко едни 6-7 години. Спогледахме се, и се разгърнахме.

Оказа се по-интересно от очакваното. Даймънд тук определено се появи в амплоато си на еколог (Природата има значение!) и малтусиснец (ресурсите растат в аритметична прогресия, а населението - в геометрична) едновременно. Тезата му е близка до реалностите днес: провалените общества изчерпват и оглозгват наличните си природни ресурси като ято хищни скакалци без капка мисъл за бъдещето, и в резултат се озовават в пустош, която се пренаселва с гладни и впоследствие озверели човешки същества. Краят е удавен в кръв и войни. Успешните общества правят обратното - щадят природата било в малки, децентрализирани и сплотени общности, или в силни и централизирани държави със стабилна и ефективна законова рамка по въпроса.

Даймънд се е захванал да го онагледи с примери от миналото и настоящето. Някои са силни и нагледни като теорията му за обитателите на Великденския остров, чиято висока култура деградира и се изражда в кръвопролития, канибализъм и загуба на умения след като отсичат и последното си високо дърво и сами се лишават от инструментите, които природата им дава (канута за далечни плавания, обитаващи животински видове, обилни реколти). “Открилите” ги през 18 век холандци заварват бледи, жалки подобия на хората, издигнали величествените статуи моаи. Тази теза ми прозвуча доста смислено и беше разгърната убедително. За разлика от други примери, като например за доста по-голямата цивилизация на маите, където за основен виновник за срива на цивилизацията през 10 век е посочена сушата. Твърде много уговорки, предположения и спекулации размиват картината.

В настоящето примерите на Даймънд за по-малки общества отново са по-силни. Неочакван и много тъжен е погледът към геноцида в Руанда, където освен колониализма, старата етническа вражда между хуту и тутси и зловещото масово насилие в една рухнала държава, като основен фактор се посочва страхотното пренаселване върху разграбена и обедняла земя. Да, но някъде по пътя отпаднаха многобройните съпътстващи фактори от немалтусианско естество… Друг съвременник в унищожаването на природата - Китай - е глобално явление само по себе си, защото рано или късно китайските проблеми просто стават световни при население от 1,3 милиарда души. Но материалът на Даймънд е повърхностен и може да се прочете във всяко реномирано списание.

Добрите примери отново са силни за малкия мащаб - като малките новогвинейска общности, упражнявали лесовъдство с “питомни” дървета казуарини. Но за големи мащаби като средновековна Япония е като да откриеш под вола теле. Да, шогуните въвеждат квоти в дърводобива и производството на предмети от дърво (един бедняк няма право да му се изработи малка кутийка от скъпа дървесина, един даймио обаче може да си построи замък с такава, но пък въди горска плантация). Обаче Даймънд отрича ролята на културните фактори като източноазиатската обич към природата, пропита в духовните течения и религии. Да не говорим, че на места има потресаващи твърдения като това, че ужасяващата индийска кастова система е страшно природосъобразна, защото…възпитава дългосрочен интерес към природата! Ако си в кастата на рибарите и няма мърдане към друга каста - щеш, не щеш щадиш рибите, защото те са занаята и на пра-пра-внуците ти! По-идиотска теза от иначе интелигентен писател не бях чела.

Последната част е вид обобщение, което е доста несвързано с предните примери. Има интересни моменти като например защо металодобивът всъщност е по-голям замърсител от нефтодобива. Но тази последна част спокойно би могла да е отделна кратка книга и нищо няма да загуби, просто е кратък обзор сама по себе си.

Посланието за ролята на природата е ценно, но по мое мнение анализът често е нагоден към основната теза, вместо тезата да е резултат от анализа. Пропуснати са усложняващи политически, културни, религиозни фактори. Самата теза иначе е смислена и благородна.

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▶️ Цитати:

“…има два типа решения, които могат да предопределят и крайния изход (успеха или провала): това са дългосрочното планиране и своевременната преоценка на наличните ценности.”

“…няма друга планета, към която да се обърнем за помощ или където да изнесем проблемите си.”

“…времената се менят, обществото се изправя и пред този избор - кое от миналото си струва да бъде запазвано и с кое да се раздели, ако иска да има и бъдеще.”

“…най-често обществата не се и опитват да решат проблема, макар да го виждат ясно.”

“…китайските проблеми автоматично се превръщат в световни.”

“…хората се дразнят от обясненията, защото ги приемат като извинения.”

-Interesante pero insistente.-

Género. Ensayo.

Lo que nos cuenta. Aproximación a los fenómenos que marcan que unas sociedades hayan florecido y otras hayan terminado desapareciendo a lo largo de neustra historia, desde ópticas pertenecientes a distintas disciplinas y apoyado en situaciones bastante documentadas en su mayoría, además de abordar cuestiones de actualidad al respecto.

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