I listened to this on audiobook. This book was....I don't even know how to put it into words. The first half of the book is in England and seriously too explicit about sex and how men and women feel about it...I just wasn't expecting it and almost quit reading it more than a few times. There was just enough to make me want to know where it was going...though I skipped through the part where Dina is almost raped by her factory boss (eww, no thank you). Then that the author actually tries to portray a fictional prophet Joseph Smith and Emma and a fictional plural wife and also their marital relationships...and THEN a fictional intimacy scene with an aged Brigham Young and a aged plural wife...I don't know if I hated it because no one should have their intimate life divulged or have a fictional life written of what that might be like...I'm sort of wondering if everyone swore back then because this author made all the men swear which is totally plausible given the rough times they lived in but still weird and I'm not sure if that was real, I'm going to look that up....and yet the whole plural wives and how that might possibly play out among them was interesting but also totally off putting, I can't tell if it's because plural marriage is always off putting to modern people, or if Orson Scot Card's writing of it is terrible. I find that half of Orson Scott Card's books I like and half of them I totally hate, and this book itself was half and half. Overall, I'm not sure I can recommend it to friends. It's a strange book

Enjoyable HF account of early mormon/lds saints. I listened. Long audio.

"Saints" is an interesting novel by sci-fi author Orson Scott Card. But this book isn't sci-fi at all, it is pure historical fiction.

The book is set in the Nauvoo era of LDS Church history. We meet (fictional) Dinah Kirkham in industrial England, where a series of tragic events leads her to Mormonism and emigration to Nauvoo. There, she encounters figures from Church history, and becomes involved with the religious developments of that time. Namely, polygamy.

"Saints" is vividly written, and certainly the genre invites comparison to "The Work and the Glory". The most vivid contrast is between the experience of reading the two; "The Work and the Glory" feels like you are watching a theatrical production dramatizing Church history, with starched gingham dresses and bearded villains. "Saints" on the other hand, gives the feel of actually living and breathing in that era.

As with any historical fiction, the weakness of the book is the liberties it takes with some of the non-fictional characters. We don't know everything Joseph Smith or Brigham Young may have said or did in private (after all, if we knew, it wouldn't be private), and OSC involves these characters in situations and conversations that humanizes them to a degree that may be uncomfortable for some who prefer a more idealistic view of these men. Hopefully, this book can serve to stir a desire to learn more about the history of Nauvoo and Joseph Smith's teachings, and not be used as the last word on any of the subjects it discusses.

This is especially true for a certain scenario involving Eliza R. Snow, Emma Smith, and a flight of stairs. You will definitely want to read up on the history of that story before accepting it's validity.


And a final warning: This book is much more frank in its depiction of "The New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage" than anything you'll find at Deseret Book. Disturbingly so, for some. There is nothing offensive, but much that will certainly raise some eyebrows. Not recommended for younger teenagers, or people who are sensitive to the practical realities of Nauvoo-era polygamy.

(If you do read this book and want to read up on the history behind it, I would recommend Glen M. Leonard "Nauvoo: A Place of Peace, a People of Promise" and the Nauvoo chapters of "Mormon Enigma".)

I really didn't like his depiction of Joseph Smith.

"Ender's Game" by Orson Scott Card is one of my all-time favorites. And I thoroughly enjoyed all the sequels. I consider Card one of the finest science fiction writers of all time. Little did I suspect that he has also written excellent historical fiction. "Saints" (first published way back in 1984) begins in Manchester, England, in 1829, in the midst of the horrors of the industrial revolution. A family falls on hard times and you quickly get caught up in their day-to-day struggles for survival. But no sooner do you think you are reading a latter-day version of Dickens, then the Latter Day Saints appear. Young Dinah Kirkham and her mother and brother convert to Mormonism and emigrate to America -- extraordinary events that the author makes seem inevitable, from his thorough build-up of the characters and their circumstances. Dinah becomes the focus of the book, which follows her from age 10 to age 100, marrying Joseph Smith, and later Brigham Young. She becomes so real, so believable, so necessary to the history of the Mormon Church, that when you are done reading the novel, you'll be impelled to do one Google search after another, looking for evidence that such a woman really lived. The author also succeeds remarkably in making the strangest beliefs and practices of the Mormon Church -- including polygamy -- seem natural and inevitable: psychologically "true".

A bit like a condensed version of The Work and the Glory...with lots more profanity and sexual content.

The fact that I was raised in an LDS family probably has something to do with my liking for this book, although I am not a religious person anymore. However, Saints is more than just "Mormon fiction" or even "religious fiction." It's really good historical fiction, and if you're a fan of the genre you owe it to yourself to read this book.

It was written early in Card's career, before he began (in my opinion) phoning it in. Saints comes from the same inspired, energetic, ultra-creative Orson Scott Card who gave us Wyrms, Hart's Hope, and the Alvin Maker series, not to mention Ender's Game and his exceptional early-career short fiction.

Like his other works from the same era, Saints is astonishingly vivid, in terms of both prose and atmosphere. It paints a gritty, dark scene of Industrial England, with all its societal injustices; and set atop this canvas is the tragic portrait of a family of good people slowly being torn apart. The subtle darkness and deep emotion are pure classic Card, as is the delicacy of the writing. Before the phone-it-in phase, Card was the best of the best at character development, particularly through dialog; and the interactions between the Kirkham family as they strive for their own identities and desires make for a priceless study in character.

The latter portion of the book takes place in America, once some of the Kirkhams have left England to join up with the "Saints" -- the other members of the fledgling Mormon Church. As a no-longer-Mormon, I found it just a tad amusing that a novel written by a staunch Mormon took such liberties in portraying the characters of important Church founders, such as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. They were not always portrayed in the most favorable light -- which is only a testament to how good Card's writing was during this phase of his career. It would have been easy for this author to make these characters virtually infallible, but Card was better back then at creating real characters. The fact that he chose to portray Smith, Young, and others as men with real, often serious personality flaws speaks to the quality of the reading experience and this novel's deserved place among the best historical novels.

What keeps this one from being a full-on five stars? Two things.

First, in the final fifth or sixth of the book it begins to feel a bit too much like a sermon for this nonbeliever's taste. The majority of the book is excellent, engaging, exceptionally-written historical fiction. The final small chunk goes a bit too religious; but by then, I was too invested in the characters to stop reading.

Second, as good as Card is at creating believable characters (in this work and others), Dinah has a personality change that just doesn't jive with the way her character is established early on. Dinah is portrayed from the get-go as a critical thinker, skeptical and in need of seeing some serious evidence before she'll believe anything anybody tells her. In fact, her rocky relationship with her father seems to have been put into the novel specifically to set her up as the most skeptical character in the book. But once she hears the Mormon message, she is instantly ready to believe it without further evidence.

Undoubtedly Card intended the reader to grasp the inherent believability of the Mormon missionaries' message specifically BECAUSE Dinah is such a critical thinker. We're to think, "If Dinah can believe it so easily, then any of these characters can believe it." Alas for Card, the trick doesn't come off so well. He does such a fine job of establishing Dinah's skepticism early on that her instant acceptance of the message and her total willingness to make enormous personal sacrifices to travel to America and become a Saint come off as being totally out of character.

(As an aside, there is some focus in the latter part of the novel on the urgency the men felt in spreading the "doctrine" of polygamy amongst their congregation. Many readers will find this highly unpalatable, but as a fan of historical fiction, and as a person with a fairly in-depth knowledge of the history of the Mormon church, I found this to be one of the most interesting parts of the book. The "doctrine" was a major sticking point in the church's early development, broke it into factions, and ultimately affected the history not only of the church but of our nation -- read up on the State of Deseret and Brigham Young's very interesting/disturbing life -- and his conflicts with President Buchanan -- for a real eye-opener! I thought giving polygamy such weight in this novel was a smart move...rather than making the book "more Mormon," it made the book more relevant to American history.)

Well, no author is perfect, nor is any book. Saints' flaws are minor in comparison to its strengths, and Dinah is quickly back to her clear-headed self, and the story resumes in a satisfying way with only the slight residual discomfort of having gone over a kind of character speed bump. I still rank Saints among my favorite historical novels, and certainly among my favorite books by Orson Scott Card.

This was a different & semi-difficult book for me to listen to. (Again, thank you audiobooks) First, I’m not accustomed to purposely listening to books with so much harsh/course language (as it’s described in the book). Second, the subject matter is difficult bc of the time period & the way people are treated. Women & children in the early 1800s especially are not treated well at all. But, as my husband pointed out, that’s history in general. I prefer ‘nice’ stories & this book definitely got me out of my comfort zone. It was only after reading several more reviews of this book that I decided I would continue listening to it. It definitely gave me plenty to consider when I was listening to the part about Joseph Smith in the early church. I do feel this would make a great book for a book group to discuss.

I usually like Card's books but it's usually science fiction. I didn't care for this one.

The audio narration alone is enough to get this book a five-star rating from me. This is the fictional story of Dinah Kirkham, who grew up poor and British as the industrial revolution was getting underway. When her dad abandoned the family, Dinah knew even as a child of 10 that she wanted whatever degree of independence she could gain.

This is a masterfully told story, and you are drawn into these characters and their lives. They are memorable enough that your own life will change because of their fictional presence in yours.

You'll read about how Dinah's mother had no choice but to force her kids to take on jobs at an early age. One eight-year-old boy became temporarily a chimney sweep, and Card's descriptions of that world were horrifying indeed.

Dinah experiences a dreadful sexual harrassment experience that was ever so close to full-on rape, and as a result, she is forced to marry her brother's friend, by whom she had two children.

The family is introduced to the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Many of its leaders had come to the United Kingdom in the 1830s and '40s, and they enjoyed much success.

But Dinah's brother, Robert, refuses to have anything to do with the church, and her husband sides with his friend, Robert. Eventually, the family migrates to the United States to live in the city that was at the time the headquarters of the church. It is while there that Dinah is introduced to the concept of plural marriage with all its attending ups and downs. Because of a significant sacrifice she was forced to make in order to come to the United States, Dinah is looked upon as a woman of real spiritual prowess. Her fellow sisters in the faith often refer to her as a prophetess.

This, then, is her story and that of her family. It is both thought provoking and memorable by every measure. I spent a sleepless night last night because I could not stop reading this. The audio narrators are better than first rate. The plot and characters are both believable and memorable as well.

I read this book when it was called "A Woman of Destiny." I've read that it was pushed then as a romance novel, but its scope is far greater than that. I was raised a Mormon and have been very interested in Mormon history, theology, and sociology. I can understand how many LDS/CJC members would feel threatened by Card's portrayals, but I personally found them very humanizing and revealing of the everyday reality of life in a new religious community. A warning: One of my friends read this at my recommendation during our internship and was disappointed when she finally realized that it was actually fiction (the chapter introductions can lead you to think that the author is actually tracing his family's history). However, this is, to my mind, very good historical fiction that is all the more convincing by having been written by a great storyteller who is also a Mormon and who also is not afraid to deal with moral issues (including religion and, in this case, polygamy) at a deeply personal level and yet within the sweep of history. I highly recommend this book to anyone in or out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

tIn all honesty, I didn't want to like Orson Scott Card's novel, "Saints", when I picked it up this time. I had read it twice before, and it bugged me both of those times, so I didn't expect anything to be different. But it has been close to a decade since I last read it, and I am a big fan of Card, so I thought I'd give it another shot. And while I can't say I particularly liked it, it had some redeeming values that I had overlooked in the past.

tAs a Latter-day Saint (or Mormon), I have been on the receiving end of the "look" folks give. You know, when some off-shoot of the LDS church gets arrested because some guy has thirty wives, half of them under the age of 13. No matter how much I protest that we are not them, folks give me the "look" and lump our missionaries in with the publicized groups. And so, picking up a book about polygamy raised my hackles from the offset.

tFirst, the things I didn't like about the novel, other than the basic premise. I didn't appreciate the nonfiction approach the introduction took. Yes, yes, we should all have noticed that the "author's note" is signed "O. Kirkham" and not "O. Card." But, frankly, I was about twelve when I read the novel, and so I foolishly thought it was fact. I hate that distrustful narrator. I didn't like it in Crichton's "Eaters of the Dead," and I don't like it now, even when I knew all the way through this was fiction.

tI didn't like the way the narrator had the gall to stick us in Joseph Smith's head and assume what he was thinking. Perhaps I am overly sensitive on the subject, having received "the look" more than once, but as many people have harped on the subject of Joseph Smith, you would think the writer could be more sensitive, particularly if he is going to make him "human." If he's going to humanize him, or portray him "realistically", then why not do it from the outside. Even as I type this, I realize it is stupid - I enjoy a good historical fiction, and love Card's "Women of Genesis" series especially, series where he puts us in the heads of scriptural folks. But for some reason, people are more prone to say, "See, Joseph Smith was a fraud" than they are to say "See, Abraham was a fake." Probably because more people believe the Bible is true than believe in the Book of Mormon.

tOne tiny thing that bugged me - there is more profanity in this novel than any of Card's other novels. I would have expected more swearing from his science fiction stories than from his novel about the Saints. And I really did not enjoy having the apostles swearing. Great, fine, they are human and painted so - but it doesn't need to be done so repeatedly crudely. This is one of Card's early novels, so I am sure he thought more readers would be LDS than not. He did, however, manage to drastically reduce the profanity once he got us out of London, which was appreciated.

tLast thing I didn't like, and this isn't really the author's fault: lack of documentation. I guess I have just been spoiled by Gerald Lund, who documents so many of his historical fiction in full. Although I am not overly comfortable by the humanizing of Joseph Smith, I could have swallowed it better if it had been footnoted. Did Joseph really engage in fights against river rats? I think I could have handled the scene better if there was some reference to bounce off of.

tYou might think, from this list, that I really didn't like the book very much. Frankly, it wasn't until I was about 2/3rds of the way through that I finally caught the message the author was beating on (and it came from one of the fictionalized author's notes; Card did use those in good stead). The point was this: the majority of the women depicted in the novel as participants in plural marriage were not shrinking violets. They were strong women, women of steel. Here we have a woman who spoke what she thought, who refused to be carried, who fought to stand on her own, and she entered into plural marriage. This was not someone overpowered by charisma or too weak to say "no." The same was true of many of the other wives - Harriette, Sally, Vilate. This was the redeeming power of the knowledge, that it showed the true mettle of many of the women. Indeed, Dinah seems well modeled after Eliza Snow, a real LDS woman who was married to both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

tI can't say I like the way Emma Smith was portrayed, but then again, the author does a good job of redeeming her. It is fact that she rejected Joseph's teachings of plural marriage; it is fact that she disliked Brigham Young; it is fact that she did not come with the church. And so she, like Joseph, is not portrayed as perfect. But she is portrayed as strong, as a woman who loves her husband, who struggles through so much (and I would pray daily never to have to suffer a tenth of what Emma suffered), who tried to do the right thing but who just could not give what God asked her to give up, having given up so much else.

tI completely enjoyed the first part of the novel - as much as you can enjoy a tragedy, of course. The author really set the stage for Dinah's life in Nauvoo, and showed us just how strong she was. There were a couple points I didn't like about her conversion - the conversion itself seems weakly described, although it is surely difficult to accurately describe such a deeply intense and personal thing. I also disliked the way she seemed to focus on Joseph from so far away; it could be easily read that she had a fixation and so of course she would wind up marrying him, although I think the author was trying to show us that it was the Lord's will for them to be sealed from the start. Because the conversion seemed shallow, I can see how nonmembers would criticize Dinah for leaving her children. Even as a member with a strong and deep testimony, I am not sure I could do such a thing (and pray I never have to); of the many trials endured by the early Saints, I never even pictured this one, though I am sure it happened on occasion. But still, Dinah's words and actions make her seem more obsessive towards Joseph - "I left behind my children for you" - than Jesus. But the characterization of Dinah, Robert, Charlie, and Anna was all very well done.

tAgain, the redeeming point of this novel is that it shows the lives and attitudes of strong women and their dreams of a sisterhood of plural wives. But if you can't handle a humanistic - whether realistic or not, I don't know, but definitely a humanistic - view of Joseph Smith, this book is not for you. Oh, yes, and I am still not sure how it was originally billed as a romance; Card needs to avoid the romance genre.