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Rating(4.1 / 5.0, 100 votes)
5 stars
38(38%)
4 stars
31(31%)
3 stars
31(31%)
2 stars
0(0%)
1 stars
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100 reviews
March 26,2025
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A detailed, compelling inspection of the collapse of Rome, Mayan civilization, and the warring states of China, among other failed societies. In understanding the collapse of once-great societies, the author considers 1) the problem-solving nature of those societies, 2) the energy required for those societies' growth, 3) the increasing costs to maintain an increasingly complex society, and 4) the fact that marginal returns decline as costs increase. Unless a society can find or develop a cheap renewable energy resource, all societies will ultimately decline; however, collapse can be avoided if complexity can be reduced in line with the marginal productivity of the society's cost to operate. This book was written in 1988 and doesn't apply the principles to the contemporary world, which would now be 30 years out of date in any event. The author's conclusion about the fall of Rome has lessons for today. Rome's collapse, he argues, was due to the excessive costs imposed on an agricultural population to maintain a far-flung empire in a hostile environment. Some questions come to mind in applying this to our society. Where might the costs in our society be greater than the benefits? Should our military be stretched so thin to maintain the "global order"? Should the profits of our capitalism be shared more equitably?
March 26,2025
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Tainter offers a sober view of the collapse of complex societies, he considered the viewpoints of so many sources that it is safe to take his word for it. He considered everyone's viewpoint and even had time for mystical reasons for collapse. This was good writing, to even allow viewpoints that one disagrees with is a mark of intellectual integrity.

This book is illuminating. Turns out all the reasons I thought caused collapse were straw man reasons invented by their writers to push an agenda, or just poor research. There are the usual suspects of catastrophes, resource depletion, inability to respond to a crisis, moral decay among the population and on and on with the usual tropes

The real reason is something subtle but powerful; economics. The moment the returns gained from complexity that is a hallmark of a complex society start diminishing, then the collapse clock starts ticking. For an exhaustive view of this it would be better to read the book.

Unfortunately the book's strength is also its weakness. Too much sober thought stifled speculation, may be it is because Tainter is an archaeologist who likes substantive reasons rather than flights of fancy. We cannot shelf away the fact that most history is speculative, and if we think of the present time, if someone looks at your room how much will they be able to tell about you? Whatever the answer, it is clear that speculation is part of the study of history and that was lacking in this book. I liked how earlier authors had speculated that some empire in South America collapsed when villagers grew tired of fighting the river floods and just left. It might be far fetched but it is possible that is what happened. Tainter should have speculated a little.
March 26,2025
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I was considering between giving this a 3 or 4 star until I was on the last couple pages and the entire book hit me like a brick. Remembering that this book was written before Soviet weakness was even truly noticed in the west, and that it collapsed for reasons almost exactly as Joseph Tainter gave out in his book. The power of the Atom is our only salvation.
March 26,2025
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This book is basically an ‘economic theory’ of societal collapses and it makes the collapse process/mechanism intelligible at the micro level. While he criticizes Toynbee for his unscientific approach but his theory essentially resonates the “challenge and response” approach.
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