A bit dated, a bit long winded, but Oldenburg's sociological analysis keenly understands what makes a civilization function well, or badly. I would add that his book antedates smart phones - I surmise that he would be apoplectic at the damage they have caused the social fabric at every level.

Told in a friendly style, but I kept thinking "The Great Good Place" needed an editor, or a better editor than it had.

This is one of the best books I have read all year. In it, sociologist Ray Oldenburg reflects on and laments the loss of "third places" in Western culture. Human beings spend much of their time at home and a work but a third place (or "great good place") is a locale that fosters an informal public life away from the first two places.

Oldenburg describes the character of third places, noting that they tend to be older, that they attract loyal patrons, that they thrive on deep conversation, that they are "levelers" that welcome all regardless of social class (or worldview; in a social media age, we are increasingly driven into "filter bubbles" that place us with those of similar/identical beliefs but third places, because they are places "loved for their own sake," attract all comers of differing worldviews), and that "regulars" of third places not only help inculcate the third place culture but they also enjoy certain unspoken privileges or benefits due to their loyal longevity. A host plays an important role in a third place but so too do regulars who can choose to accept and include newcomers. Examples of third places include the lager beer gardens of German immigrants, Main Street, English pubs, French cafes, American taverns, and classic coffeehouses (particularly those modelled after Vienna coffeehouses), all of which have chapters dedicated to them in Oldenburg's book.

Third places have declined in the post-WWII era because of urban planning that seeks to maximize profits and that does not take into account the need for local, communal connections. The suburbs are the prime example of this; in the postwar era, housewives were confined to their homes where they felt isolated and lonely (Oldenburg provocatively suggests that Baby Boomer girls saw the misery of their lonely mothers and sought escape from a similar fate and that this helped contribute to the rise of the women's movement) and since the suburbs were not zoned for third places, they lacked the neighbourhood taverns, the corner stores, the bowling alleys that offered arenas for informal public life; instead, suburban America had to drive everywhere, thereby missing out on local connections that could be gained by strolling to the nearby commercial strip.

Oldenburg insists that third places have played a crucial role in nurturing good relations between the sexes. Women have at times been barred from third places (such as the early English coffeehouses) but they have effectively wielded influence over the domestic realm. At times, they have viewed third places as threats because their husbands spend so much time (for instance) at the local bar. But Oldenburg believes that third places helped to foster close male friendships that have now sharply declined in today's culture. Oldenburg also notes that the shift towards companionate marriages had a major impact on marital relationships:

“Men’s attention turned away from male bonding and the third place settings in which it had been celebrated on a daily basis. A new appreciation of one’s mate and a different marital relationship were being cultivated. In the face of repeated moves and the consequent loss of other stable ties, the husband came to rely upon his wife as a female sidekick whose growing presence in his life supplanted the lost continuity of male relationships. A new marital intimacy took shape around the fact that the spouse had become the man’s one hope for a durable relationship in life” (p. 245).

Third places DO take men (and women) away from their spouses, but this absence creates longing in the spouses for one another that can then be released when they are both at home. By not smothering one another, by both having meaningful friendships with other people, they become happier with one another because the spouse does not have to then be the "be-all-and-end-all" for the other person. There is much food for thought here for Christians navigating marriages; many evangelicals have adopted the principle that you "marry your best friend" (companionate marriages) but how can Christian couples encourage one another in their close same-sex friendships (to me, this seems easier for women than for men so I think particular care should be given towards fostering close male friendships for husbands).

Some moral conservatives, such as those in the temperance movements, have sharply objected to drinking. Yet Oldenburg laments that public drinking has declined while private drinking has increased. One can be grateful that this perhaps contributes to less drunk driving accidents, but at the same time, public drinking can discourage EXCESSIVE drinking; someone drinking at home has no witnesses who might "tut-tut" them from over-drinking.

To me, Oldenburg's book is charged with the spirit of G.K. Chesterton and Wendell Berry, champions of the common man and local culture. Indeed, as Oldenburg explains in his chapter on French cafes:

"Conservatism grows with the investment in a locality. The longer individuals remain in a given area, the more they resist both change and the idea of moving. Once the French worker finds a tolerable work situation, a suitable dwelling for his family, and a bistro at which to enjoy the companionship of his pals, he becomes an immovable object. Why should he move?...Having established his first, second, and third place, the Frenchman wisely proceeds to enjoy them. They are satisfied individuals, neither lonely nor dependent upon tomorrow to bring life’s rewards. The American, having achieved an outwardly similar situation, is far more easily dislodged from it, for the American is conditioned not to be satisfied" (p. 154).

Corporations like Starbucks or McDonald's may provide a third space (for the latter see Chris Arnade's wonderful Dignity: Seeking Respect in Back Row America) but their obsessive thirst for maximizing profits undermines their value as third spaces. Thus, third spaces are not typically chains but local business and establishments that have roots in the neighbourhood.

One aspect of great good places that is all-too-briefly touched on is how ethnic pluralism impacts third places. Oldenburg mentions how the Russian "Polya Club" operated as an "ethnic enclave" and helped encourage cultural traditions among old and young in the eastern USA but when Oldenburg discusses cultural assimilation he mostly refers to European cultures - English, French, German, Italian, Russian. Third places DO help maintain cultural traditions but in heavily pluralistic metropolises such as Los Angeles, New York, Vancouver, and London, it seems to me that ethnic pluralism and great good places may clash (especially since third places thrive on deep conversation and some new immigrants may not be able to communicate with their fellow citizens); as indicated in the places Oldenburg explores, these locales originated from particular ethnicities and in order to maintain their character and charm, patrons must respect their unique cultural ethos. At the same time, the desire to be welcoming and hospitable to all can dilute this uniqueness which can be a barrier to newcomers (indeed, Oldenburg describes how many great good places remodeled their decor and revamped their menus to suit yuppies and professional women who began frequently these establishments, even though this meant changing what longtime regulars were accustomed to).

I was also surprised that churches were not given more attention. Churches are the "third place" for many people - the Sunday school teacher, the youth group leader, the prayer group member. Many committed Christians do not confine their religious activity to just Sunday mornings but are involved in church throughout the week (and in the past, many Christians attended services in the morning AND the evening on Sundays). Still, I suppose churches don't have the same low-barriers to membership that cafes and pubs do; a Southern Baptist, an atheist, a communist, an environmentalist, and a transgender activist can all go to the pub together but only the Christian would naturally feel comfortable in the pews.

I had heard of third places before reading this book but 'The Great Good Place' was an illuminating exploration of their character and customs. I highly recommend this book. It has inspired me to think about how I can cultivate third places, even in limited ways, in my own life. And, you really come to appreciate the genius of 'Cheers' - a televised sitcom of a third place where "everybody knows your name and they're always glad you came."

read for research purposes and generally agreed with a lot of the observations related to the loss of third places and the loss of democracy but there were some concerning thoughts around “decency” and behavior that rubbed me the wrong way. also lacked a ton of thinking and nuance around race and maintaining us caste system playing a huge role in the disappearance of third space

It's been a while since I've read an urban studies book and I was excited to finally get round to reading Ray Oldenburg's The Great Good Place, where he introduces the concept of the "third place".

Unfortunately, the book fell flat for me. At 296 pages (excluding the notes and bibliography), it felt about 196 pages too long.

In the opening chapters, Oldenburg makes a compelling case for so-called "third places" - the spaces beyond the home and workplace where members of the local community can gather informally and gradually become familiar with and comfortable with each other. As third places are inclusive, they teach us to "be at easy with everyone in the neighbourhood irrespective of how one feels about them…A third place is a 'mixer'". Beyond providing an "informal public life", third places are community assets, functioning as staging areas during local crises or providing "public characters", those who know everyone in the neighbourhood, who care about the neighbourhood and generally keep an eye on things.

In Part 1 of The Great Good Place, Oldenburg examines how changing norms in the US led to the dearth of third places. Urban planning norms is one major contributing factor - the rapid expansion of the suburbs, where one drives to different amenities, means that there is no local drugstore/café/library etc one can stroll to readily from one's home on a daily basis. That Americans were gradually receding into self sufficient nuclear family bubbles, and saw this self-sufficiency as a mark of material success was another:

"The overequipped home was mass-produced in underequipped neighbourhoods. Diversions and facilities that had previously been available only in public space and for the shared use of the citizenry came to be the objects of private consumptions and use. These included swimming pools, pool tables, picnic grills, liquor bars, the movie screen and quality musical sound and even tennis courts. Earlier, shared forms of entertainment and diversion brought people together. They were good for community but not good for the economy. The worst student of arithmetic could understand that more money would be spent in a nation where every household tries to own what a community once provided for all"

In Part 2, he dissects the various third places in different countries - the German-American lager beer gardens, American main street, the English pub, the French café, the American tavern and classic coffeehouses. Apart from the occasional interesting factoid like:

"The English date their pubs from the inns and taverns founded after the Roman and Norman occupations; the antecedents of the French bistro or sidewalk café emerged about five hundred years ago with the world's first coffeehouses in Saudi Arabia. From Mecca, they may be traced to Constantinople and eventually to Vienna, where the coffeehouse was introduced with remarkable success."

I generally found this section a little repetitive - it basically hammered home that while the third place took different forms in different cultures and fit into people's daily routines and rhythms a little differently, they generally played the same valuable roles in the community. Also, reading this some 30 years after the book was first published, this section feels quite dated.

I lost patience by the third section, which, among other things, attempted to look at gender relations through the lens of the third place. This section definitely felt dated.

Overall, I'm glad I got round to reading the original source of the term "third place" but it wasn't as satisfying a read as I thought it would be.

starbucks creator really said “copy paste” … but oldenburg lowkey spit with this

Very very good. Hauntingly predicts a lot of future bullshit we now deal with. He almost gets 4.5 stars at the end for me, because of dated language and ignorant assumptions. However, he redeems himself in the last chapter and earns 5 stars.

I corresponded with Ray Oldenburg for 20 years before finally meeting him in 2012. He was one of the associate editors of the Encyclopedia of Community: From the Village to the Virtual World, which I edited and published with SAGE, and I published his last book, The Joy of Tippling: A Salute to Bars, Taverns, and Pubs. Before his death in 2022, at 90, we agreed that I would write a new, 21st-century version of The Great Good Place. Details at https://greatgoodplace.org/.

Great concept but book reads like a textbook

Worth reading I think. A little dated in some respects and in other respects clearly representative of a particular (white, male) point of view but overall very engaging and thought-provoking (and sometimes yearning-provoking. I yearned.)

Few books have had greater influence on the way we perceive communities, community-building, and collaboration than Ray Oldenburg's "The Great Good Place." The terms he introduces have become part of our lexicon: the first place (home), the second place (work), and the third place--the great good place, which is where we meet, socialize, share ideas with, and learn from friends and acquaintances who become part of our personal and extended community. In the first part of his book, Oldenburg describes the history of the third place in America, explores the character of third places, and outlines the "personal benefits" and "greater good" resulting from nurturing and sustaining third places--a tremendous antidote to cynics who claim there no longer is a commitment to the idea of public goods. "My interest in those happy gathering places that a community may contain, those 'homes away from home' where unrelated people relate, is almost as old as I am," Oldenburg writes at the beginning of his book (p. ix), and his obvious love and admiration for and commitment to those places serves as inspiration for anyone trying to justify a commitment to community and collaboration.

I've looked at a number of "third place" business concepts over the years and learned of Ray Oldenburg and his research on the topic. Third places being the place after (1) home and (2) work where people go to socialize and find community. Characteristics of these places include: they are on neutral ground, welcome all people, are accessible, modest, and playful. Customers develop a sense of ownership for the places, feel restored, at ease and rooted there, and regulars talk freely about their lives, their community, and the world.

The author's thesis that Americans are more isolated and lonely than ever due to the decline of these places is interesting and agreeable. I wish this book had been written more recently (the original was written in 1989 with an update in 1999), as I would like to consider this thesis and the support for it in the context of smartphones, social media, and other technology that has emerged since then.

I only gave this three stars because the author, a university professor, couldn't find the right balance between an academic treatise and popular nonfiction for the lay reader. His analysis of "third places" historically include English pubs, French bistros, American taverns (the local neighborhood "dive" variety, the American small town Main Streets, German beer gardens, and Viennese coffee shops. When homes were much smaller and a lot less lavishly decked out, these places provide a gathering place for community life where an individual could drop in and out at will. The author traces the decline of such places in America to the 1920s- 1940s. When returning World War II veterans were given cheap loans for houses in newly emerging suburbs, the fate of many third places was sealed. The author maintains that the loss of many third places has been especially devastating for males. Despite the long history and almost depressing analysis, the author is hopeful that Americans can find their way back to an active community life in the "third place". Oldenburg's definition of a third place does not include museums, libraries, or art galleries. He's writing about places where ongoing, lively conversations are the main entertainment. This book was written in 1989 and revised in 1997. It has been the springboard for other titles like Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam.