What no chorus?

Wonderful little translation by David Barrett that keeps the Aristophanic tone, or rather, what it would sound like (though certainly not in the literal, phonetic sense, as these were all in sung verse! But having read many shitty Victorian English translations of Greek plays in Iambic verse, I guarantee you that this is a good thing) to the Athenian audience, by making it a sort of little ancient Monty Python. The song sections are translated like ballads even if, as Barrett himself admits, the genuine genius of Aristophanes as far as comic poetry is concerned cannot be replicated in any translation - the songs here being translated as ballads.

Comedy is very topical - and it was very topical too. With enough context, cultural and linguistic, lost, a joke can go from simply "no longer funny" to "outright incomprehensible gibberish", like the famous Sumerian bar dog joke (honestly I am fairly certain it was a dick joke). Because of this, ancient comedies, or at least even halfway decent editions of it, come with a entire military corps of footnotes and translator's notes. Having read shitty editions of Aristophanes' works, using public domain translations and containing no footnotes, I assure you you want them, because they're needed to even understand what's being talked about at time.

This is specially true of Aristophanes, because the man made constant references to other poets of the day, the the never-ending Peloponnesian war and its twists and turns, the deteriorating economic situation, the rule of demagogues, etc. That said, I am shocked at the amount of footnotes here - there are relatively few! not even reaching 150 for three plays! And they don't interrupt the reading much, while rarely was there reference to things I didn't know, though sometimes there were and I assume that these are simply things lost to time (sometimes these are noted, when they're more potentially pertinent, or the joke is specially obscure).

Unlike Aeschylus where I am a firm believer that you need to keep in verse, the high and lofty style, however you go about it notwithstanding, with Aristophanes not that much is lost with prose dialogue (except for the songs, of course). Instead of an overly literal translation, the dialogue here is more concerned with capturing the comedic finesse of the original: one bit has the characters speaking with a ridiculous amount of alliteration, and here obviously it's more important to capture that over "accurately" translating the Greek. Sometimes these can be weird - per example, the Scythian guard with an accent in Thesmophoriazusae is translated here as having a racist Italian-American accent. It seemed strange to me but then I also thought, well fuck, what else would you do here? Russian accent would maybe be better, but ayyyy those aren't so well captured in text.

Aristophanes, however, was not just doing shallow vulgar humor here, and he was very much willing to tackle, through comedy, the issues of his day: namely the never-ending war and the economic damage it was causing to most people, the critique of democracy and demagogy, the question of Alcibiades' return, etc. The Frogs, which one is tempted to consider the silliest one despite it being agreed back in its own day as his masterpiece, is probably the most sophisticated in this regard. Sophisticated, too, is how Aristophanes uses characters with opposing viewpoints, some correct here and others there, to make a nuanced point, dialectical rather than the "middle way" of mediocre brains - even if I don't always agree with him.

Ultimately this is a fantastic translation of three of Aristophanes' plays, but I am confused as to why only three were put together here considering the price of the usual paperback in the day. Only three? Come on now, the man has eleven surviving plays, this is just over a fourth! The page count reaches a measly 220 pages! They're not even thematically related. Well, whatever, in any case, I tell you this: Aristophanes still holds up, in fact, IF PROPERLY TRANSLATED, it holds up shockingly well, though in a live performance without the benefit of footnotes, I would guess that some script changes would have to be done, specially because most people would know not even the basics of Aristophanes' world and environment. That said, The Frogs has that musical adaptation from the 70s and which keeps being played - the music is certainly a bop - every other year so, if you don't trust me, just think that the play, in whatever mutated form, is still being played, making it one of the oldest ones around! In any case, the musical treatment would certainly be in the spirit for the Old Comedy originals, as they were played with grand music, costumes, dances, etc, high budgeted stuff.

All in all - really great version of these plays of Aristophanes, however I would wish for more of the corpus.

Euripides is annoying

Three plays: Wasps, Women at the Thesmophoriae, and Frogs. Aristophanes alludes all the time to contemporary events and politics, which makes him difficult to read - you have to refer all the time to the notes. That is one of the reasons why I prefer his play Lysistrata about a sex strike by the women of Athens - see my discussion of Lysistrata by Aristophanes here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Aristophanes came along in my reading following extensive other readings of ancient Athenian history, heroes and gods throughout many works by Homer, Hesiod, Plutarch, Arrian, Xenophon, Plato, Aristotle, Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, Apollonius of Rhodes, and Ovid. Arriving to Aristophanes with such a knowledge of literary, political and mythical references, it is apparent Aristophanes can be paired well with Cervantes’ Don Quixote mirroring an exhaustion of heroic romances, or even a Greek version of a Dantean escatological interplay between life, an afterlife, and the divine. Aristophanes’ Old Comedy might be a useful source even to compare with Finnegans Wake for their burlesque bawdiness and polyvocal metrical complexity.

Structurally, I am still coming to terms with the complexities of Aristophanic comedy: parodos, agon, strophic pairs of choruses, parabasis, songs, iambic dialogue. I am not sure how well these can be translated but it seems Stephen Halliwell has done an excellent job in his 2015 translation of these works, and I am looking forward to reading his translations of the remaining eight comedies in two by additional volumes. These plays were grouped as the cultural plays (Clouds, Women of Thesmophoria, Frogs). The 1997 first volume included Birds, Lysistrata, The Assembly Women, Wealth, and the 2024 final volume the political plays: Acharnians, Knights, Wasps, Peace.


n  Cloudsn was where I had hoped to start coming off reading Plato’s early Socratic dialogues and Xenophon’s four Socratic dialogues. In fact, the order of reading was rather helpful, in particular Xenophon’s dialogue on estate management between Socrates and Ischomachus in Oeconomicus alongside Hesiod’s advice to farmers in his Works and Days.

STREPSIADES. What I mentioned before: that immoral way of debating.
SOKRATES. But you need to learn other things first. Now here's an example:
Which animals rightly belong to the masculine gender?*
STREPSIADES. I know all the masculine ones. Any fool knows that!
The ram, the goat, the bull, the dog, and the cock-fowl.
SOKRATES. You see what you're doing? The word for cock you've used
Is the same one you always use for hens as well.
STREPSIADES. Is that really so?
SOKRATES. But of course: you say 'cock' for both.*
STREPSIADES. By Poseidon, that's right! Well, what should I say then instead?

In Clouds, the father and son incarnations of traditional and modern, Strepsiades and Pheidippides, intimate social tensions of political rhetoric of orators and sycophants (lawyers) in conflict with wealth as represented in land, money lending, aristocratic prestige, new models of education, and generational change. However, Aristophanes depiction of Socrates is so far off Aristotle’s, Plato’s and Xenophon’s likening that it becomes a helpful frame to understand other character adaptations. Herein, Socrates is an incontinent farting machine with oafish sophist teachings. There are only minor hints of the Platonic version, while Xenophon’s more common men of the city, like the estate owner Strepsiades, are heavily featured. The classic Agon I of Clouds is between Moral and Immoral, followed later in Agon II with between father and son, Strepsiades and Pheidippides.

MORAL. Come over here then! Show yourself
To the audience there. What an impudent thing!
IMMORAL. Go wherever you want! The bigger the crowd
The more I'll argue you into the ground.
MORAL. What you?
IMMORAL. With my words.
MORAL. But you're weaker than me.
IMMORAL. All the same I'll defeat
One who makes the claim that he's stronger than me.
MORAL. What's your clever trick then?
IMMORAL. I have new ideas I've discovered myself.
MORAL. Well such things only flourish
(gesturing at audience) On account of these idiots sitting in front of us here.
IMMORAL. But these people are clever.

n  The Women of Thesmophorian is by far the funniest of the three comedies. The Kinsman of Euripides is pure comic relief, and the conceit of the play is masterful. The premise of false gender identities, the maligning of engendered behaviors and practices, and of the infiltration of a women’s only Dionysian festival posits Agathon (one of the unique attendees in Plato’s Symposium and also a tragic playwright) and Euripides as equals in poetic promise yet polarized in appearance, age, and sexuality. The simple inclusion of Agathon here is an interesting selection.

AGATHON. There's no escaping the link. I've recognized this
And have pampered myself accordingly.
KINSMAN. But why?
EURIPIDES [to KINSMAN]. Stop yapping away. I used to be just the same
When I was the age he is and was starting to write.
KINSMAN. By Zeus I'm glad I wasn't brought up like you!
EURIPIDES. But let me explain the reason I've come.
KINSMAN.
Yes, tell him.
EURIPIDES. Agathon, 'it's the mark of a skilful man to know how
To compress a long speech with a fine concision of words?*
I've been struck down by a blow of fresh misfortune
And have come to you in supplication.
AGATHON. What for?
EURIPIDES. The women have plans to destroy my life today
At the Thesmophoria, because I slander them.
AGATHON. What kind of help do you think that I can give?
EURIPIDES. Every kind that I need! If you infiltrate the meeting
That the women are holding and look like a woman yourself,
You can speak in defence of me and save my life!
Only you can speak in a style that's worthy of me.
AGATHON. Why can't you go and present your own defence?
EURIPIDES. I'll tell you. For one thing, my face is known to all.
For another, my hair is grey and I'm bearded as well.
But your face is pretty, as pale as a woman's and shaved,
You've a woman's voice, you're soft-skinned, and lovely to look at.
AGATHON [hesitating]. Euripides—

n  Frogsn is a play I first encountered through a performance on the Greek island of Spetses circa 1995. The wild choruses and phalli hanging from the protagonist shaped the ecstatic, cacophonous atmosphere of the outdoor amphitheater on a temperate summer night. At 11 or 12 years old, I hardly knew what tragedy was, and Frogs intellectual narratives and humor hardly touched me.

Now, I can appreciate these retellings of Heraclean (and even Ophic) labors with Dionysiac focus. The central Agon between Aeschlus (spelled Aischylos by Halliwell) and Euripides is a contest of who is to be the greatest poet to sit alongside Plato (spelled Plouton by Halliwell) after death in Hades. I actually found Euripides critic of Aeschylus’ repetition humorous, as well as Aeschylus’ attack of Euripides ubiquitous application of conveniently constructed devices (like his application of deus ex machina to conclude his plays) in any scene. A wholly worthy literary reflection on tragedy and poetic value to a society facing political collapse and destruction.

EURIPIDES. What nonsense you're talking. My prologues are beautifully written.
AISCHYLOS. I can't bear to continue this word-by-word dissection
Of every verse. With the help of the gods on my side I'll use a miniature oil-jar to rubbish your prologues.*
EURIPIDES. A miniature oil-jar to deal with my prologues?
AISCHYLOS. Just one.
Your style of writing means any old object will fit—
A fleecelet, a miniature oil-jar, a little old sack—
The iambic lines you compose. I'll show you at once.
EURIPIDES. Oh you will, will you?
AISCHYLOS. Yes.
EURIPIDES. All right then, listen to this.
'Aigyptos, so prevailing tradition relates,
With fifty sons traversed the sea by oar,
Put in to Argos and—*
AISCHYLOS. …lost his miniature oil-jar!
DIONYSOS. What's the point of the miniature oil-jar? It's damned annoying.
Recite him a further prologue let's see what it means.
EURIPIDES. ‘Dionysos, equipped with thyrso and wearing fawnskins,
Among the pine-trees down Parnassos's slopes
Went leaping in dance and—›*
AISCHYLOS. …lost his miniature oil-jar!
DIONYSOS. Oh no, he's struck us again with this miniature oil-jar!
EURIPIDES. I'm not concerned by that. Now here's a prologue
To which he won't be able to tag on an oil-jar.
‘No man exists who's happy in all respects.
Perhaps born noble he falls in penury's way.
Or low by birth—**
AISCHYLOS. …he loses his miniature oil-jar!
DIONYSOS [confidentially]. Euripides—
EURIPIDES. What's wrong?

The fragments are the first I have read of any from the Greek Theater and they emphasize both the great loss of ancient genius as well as the astonishing luck to have any complete plays of Athenian tragedy and comedy remaining. The extensive titles and knowedge of their characters, themes and motifs greatly enhances an understanding of the pervasive 5th and 4th century literary contests in the late winter and spring festivals. Our fragmentary, incomplete awareness of the past sheds light on the fickleness of time and continuity, of our own time in light of an ancient renaissance, and the potential for humanity to transmit excellence across millennia.

Very funny comedy from the early days of comedy. Requires some knowledge of tragedy and the political situation in which it was written, but I found that the notes were generally very helpful. Other passages (like the first half of the Frogs) required very few notes and were hilarious. Worth looking at as a counterpoint to the more well known Greek Tragedians.

(Only read The Frogs and The Wasps, its for school) The Wasps play was my favourite and I was surprised at how funny it actually was. The Frogs was more serious, but with some descriptions from my study book I found it pretty good is well.

an absolute gem lol. shoutout to mrs burch for the rec :D

Pretty accessible translation—I think my undergraduates had a pretty easy time with it!

Classic comedy. Doesn’t disappoint one bit. A must read. Wish I could read it in it’s original Latin text though!

I love these plays. Everyone should read them. Even though they were written so long ago they are still funny. Also they a cleaver like a mixture of Jane Austen wit with Shakespeare thrown in as well.

the camp dionysus representation we deserve. "high heeled boots and saffron negligee" go off king.